Billy Herman interview
Date1990 August 08
DescriptionThree audio cassettes featuring an interview with Billy Herman conducted by Rod Roberts on behalf of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum on August 8, 1990 in Cooperstown, New York.
Object numberHF-1996-0001-05
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Herman, Billy, 1909-1992
Subject
Herman, Billy, 1909-1992
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Library Call NumberCTA 780
Library Call NumberCTA 781
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Library Call NumberCTA 779
Dimensions3 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1 Side TwoTrack 1 - (Tape picks up in the middle of comment from CTA 780 Side 1) (00:00:00 to 00:00:51) Track 2 - (Entire comment about KiKi Cuyler is on this track) On Kiki Cuyler, great player, great hitter, had some power, outstanding player; pitchers Bill Lee and Lon Warneke both won 20 games in 1935; Warneke the better pitcher (00:00:51 to 00:01:38) Track 3 - Interviewer Roberts has a problem with the tapes (00:01:38 to 00:04:45) Track 4 - On Hugh Casey, didn't pitch much in Chicago, became an outstanding relief pitcher for Brooklyn (00:04:45 to 00:05:25) Track 5 - On 1935 World Series, had a good series, hit a home run, last game they got beat 4-3 and he knocked in all three of those runs; next year lost out to the Giants; on Ethan Allen, came over from the Cardinals, never quite lived up to his potential; finished second in again in 1937; 1940 was the only bad year they ever had the whole time he was there (00:05:25 to 00:07:44) Track 6 - On Chicago fans really liking him, being very surprised when he was traded to Brooklyn, but it turned out because Chicago finished seventh and Brooklyn finished first; enjoyed playing in Chicago; called him at 2 a.m. to tell him to report to Ebbets Field, first game he went four for four (00:07:44 to 00:09:23) Track 7 - On winning the pennant in 1938; overmatched in the World Series by the Yankees again; replacing Charlie Grimm; Dizzy Dean came in '38 and he pitched well, he was in pain every time he threw the ball, but he pitched a good game in the World Series, (Frankie) Crosetti hit a home run to beat him; Dean was a great competitor (00:09:23 to 00:10:54) Track 8 - On going to Brooklyn in '41, traded for Johnny Hudson and an outfielder; he was married before he went into baseball; moved his family from New Albany in July to an apartment in New York (00:10:54 to 00:12:26) Track 9 - Good ball club in Brooklyn, catcher Mickey Owen; good defensive ball club, (Pee Wee) Reese, (Dolph) Camilli, (Cookie) Lavagetto, Pete Reiser, Joe Medwick, Dixie Walker; on Owen going down in history for one play, same with (Fred) Merkle; on Reiser, he could have been one of the best players of all time if he hadn't had accidents, great attitude, played hard, warning tracks might have saved him, ran right into the concrete walls (00:12:26 to 00:14:30) Track 10 - On playing for Leo Durocher, as a player-manager; Durocher played Pee Wee (Reese) all the time, he came along and had a good World Series in '41, outstanding shortstop; Durocher not his best friend but admired how he ran the ball club, enthusiasm for the game (from here on is duplicated on CTA-880, Side 2, that one sounds better) (00:14:30 to 00:15:46) Track 11 - On Herman Franks, second string catcher (00:15:46 to 00:16:00) Track 12 - On always running into the Yankees in the World Series, he was in nine World Series and eight of them were against the Yankees, played in four and coached in five (00:16:00 to 00:16:30) Track 13 - On Pee Wee Reese, he wasn't big but he was strong; he was the best shortstop, but Billy Jurges also was a great shortstop, outstanding defensive player; Ozzie Smith most outstanding defensive shortstop Herman ever saw, makes incredible plays, was a gymnast and has great body control, can dive for the ball and get back on his feet; Arky Vaughan an ordinary defensive shortstop, outstanding hitter and runner, he could fly (00:16:30 to 00:18:32) Track 14 - On pitcher Bobo Newsom, a bit on his way out, a strange person, but a good pitcher; another good pitcher on the team, Whitlow Wyatt; always said Warneke was the best pitcher he ever played behind; but Wyatt was best in 1941, had an outstanding year; played against Schoolboy Rowe in '35 World Series, and played against him with the Phillies; was on the service team with him, Rowe a great hitter, great athlete (00:18:32 to 00:20:14) Track 15 - Was in military service in '44-'45, got as far as Honolulu; he was an MVP, they had Williams, and (Stan?) Musial; but Herman was MVP; he was a player-manager for the service team played with Bob Lemon, Freddie Hutchinson; won the pennant in Honolulu; had good players, (Gene?) Woodling, Johnny Mize, Skeeter Dickey, Ferris Fain (00:20:14 to 00:22:22) Track 16 - On Freddie Fitzsimmons, starting pitcher, playing in the World Series against the Yankees someone hit him on the knee with a line drive and cracked his kneecap; Herman got hurt too, hardly ever got hurt, '34 he had two sprained ankles, only played 130 games (00:22:22 to 00:23:15) Track 17 - On differences in baseball, enthusiasm level is lower, players just want to count their money; more emphasis on running rather than hitting; didn't want players that struck out a lot; Herman used to joke with Joe Sewell that if he could have made better contact he would have been a better hitter (only struck out four times) (00:23:15 to 00:25:24) Track 18 - On tough pitchers, didn't like right-handed sinkerball, three toughest guys were Hal Schumacher, Bucky Walters and Hugh Mulcahy with the Phillies, same, hard, fast low inside sinker; left-handed sinker balls were OK, he could hit them (00:25:24 to 00:26:19) Track 19 - Never thought about greatest day in baseball; greatest thrill was when the Cubs traded him, they had a guy named Jimmie Wilson as manager who had replaced (Gabby) Hartnett; Wilson didn't like him and traded him to Brooklyn; Brooklyn came back to play a series in Chicago, had a lot of knock-down games, this game was really wild and Wilson had Hi Bithorn pitching and (Chico) Hernandez catching, and he wanted them to knock the Brooklyn players down, but they didn't want to; Herman came up to hit and Wilson took out the pitcher and the catcher out, put in Paul Erickson, who could throw hard and Clyde McCullough to catch, both were his friends from years with the Cubs; first three pitches right behind his head; Durocher let him hit with three-nothing on the count and he hit a home run right over the fence; no helmets then, the only thing protecting you was a felt cap; they tried to hit people too much back in the day and people got hurt; don't blame the pitchers (00:26:19 to 00:30:13) Track 20 - On the greatest defensive play he ever saw was by Ozzie Smith; Herman was a coach in '78-'79, playing in San Diego, outfielder (Jeff?) Burroughs hit a ball with a lot of spin on it; Ozzie Smith dove at the ball with glove hand and it bounced behind him; reached back bare-handed, caught the ball and threw Burroughs out, greatest fielding play ever (00:30:13 to 00:31:55) Cassette 2 Side One Track 1 - Born in New Albany, IN, just across from Louisville, KY, on July 7, 1909; named for William Jennings Herman, after William Jennings Bryon; 10 in the family, he was next to last, six boys and four girls; he was the only one to play baseball; older brother played a little until he broke his ankle and had to give it up; father was a machinist; lived on the edge of town; father was born 15 miles from there, mother also was native; both of German extraction, mother's maiden name was Stotz; played sandlot baseball, church teams, industrial teams, town teams and high school team; also played basketball in high school, capital of the basketball world; everyone was a fan (00:00:00 to 00:03:49) Track 2 - He was playing in sandlots and president of Louisville baseball club, American Association, saw him play and signed him; used to be Double A, now it's Triple A; offered $250 a month, he was 17 and that was a lot of money; started playing for Vicksburg, MS, as low as you could go, Class D; he enjoyed it, played shortstop there, then moved to second base and did well there; next year moved to Class B team in Dayton, OH; and then moved up to Louisville; sold him for cash to Chicago (00:03:49 to 00:06:40) Track 3 - Played about the same in the Majors and Minors, hit .330 first and second year in the Minors and hit .327 first year in the big leagues; kept improving; got to Chicago and Rogers Hornsby was second baseman and manager, and they were looking for a younger man for second base; a tough manager, a tough and great player; Hornsby was traded a lot of times, one time for Frankie Frisch (00:06:40 to 00:08:11) Track 4 - On good ball club: Charlie Grimm on first, Gabby Hartnett as catcher, in 1932 won the pennant; Harnett best catcher he ever saw; better arm than (Bill) Dickey and (Mickey) Cochrane; also had Hack Wilson and Kiki Cuyler, both in the Hall of Fame; Wilson was a rough-tough guy, liked to have a good time, drank too much after the game, a good player, could hit that ball, he died at a fairly early age (00:08:11 to 00:10:43) Track 5 - On Rollie Hemsley, an outstanding player, should have been a first string catcher but was behind Hartnett; Charlie Root one of the better pitchers, also had Pat Malone, Lon Warneke; good team (00:10:43 to 00:11:40) Track 6 - Chicago in the Al Capone era, he used to come to the games with bodyguards (00:11:40 to 00:12:02) Track 7 - First full year Herman was there they won the pennant, 22 years old; won again in '35; Riggs Stephenson was there in '32, played left field and was an outstanding hitter, surprised he was not elected to the Hall of Fame; why some people are elected to the Hall of Fame and others are not, shouldn't be just the numbers should be about contributions to the game; need to care about the game (00:12:02 to 00:14:22) Track 8 - 1932 World Series, they got "swamped, played one of the greatest Yankee teams of all time," they were outmatched—Herman was a young kid, Billy Jurges was young, Stan Hack was young; the Yankees had veteran players; they had fired Hornsby with six-eight weeks to go and Grimm was the manager; Herman was in awe of the Yankees and just glad to be there (00:14:22 to 00:15:27) Track 9 - '32 Yankees had five Hall of Fame players; and other three could have; left fielder was (Ben) Chapman shortstop (Frankie) Crosetti, second baseman (Tony) Lazzeri (00:15:27 to 00:16:06) Track 10 - On Babe Ruth, fascinated everybody, a super player, lifetime .330 batting average, a great outfielder, average runner; Lou Gehrig was awesome, so big and strong, could hit that ball; Ruth could do it all, didn't really talk to the opposition; played against Ruth in two World Series; Ruth's famous "called home run" wasn't true, he was pointing to the bench not to center field (00:16:06 to 00:18:54) Track 11 - Warneki was the best pitcher Herman ever played behind; his first four years in the big leagues were his best; hurt himself in the World Series and was never the same; interviewer talks about Sports Illustrated article about pitchers; Warneke an outstanding pitcher; his first four years he won over 80 games (00:18:54 to 00:20:50) Track 12 - On Burleigh Grimes; a good friend, took Herman under his wing (00:20:50 to 00:21:18) Track 13 - On Hornsby being rough on everybody, but worse on Herman, he resented Herman for playing every day; giving him hell; Grimes like the way Herman played or acted (contains profanity) (00:21:18 to 00:22:47) Track 14 - On Billy Jurges getting shot by his girlfriend in the ribs, so he was out of the lineup for six weeks, needed a shortstop so they bought Mark Koenig to play shortstop; Eddie Waitkus also got shot; Chicago was a tough city (00:22:47 to 00:24:14) Track 15 - On Stan Hack, should be in the Hall of Fame, .300 lifetime average and he would get Herman's vote every time; (tape glitches) didn't do the spectacular plays, did his job well and helped win games; need to see some ballplayers everyday to know (00:24:14 to 00:25:34) Track 16 - Being a player-manager, tried it and couldn't do either job well; on Lou Boudreau, giving Bill McKechnie a lot of the managerial business; not a good situation, a tough job (tape glitches) (00:25:43 to 00:26:40) Track 17 - Having three Hermans on the team, Babe Herman, Leroy Hermann, a pitcher; Babe had a .330 lifetime average should be in the Hall of Fame, he was kind of a clown but a good player and a good hitter; veterans should pick the Hall of Fame inductees, not the writers, they don't know the players; can't be just about the numbers (00:26:40 to 00:29:47) Track 18 - On Tuck Stainback, roomed with him, a fine young man but a little short of ability (00:29:47 to 00:30:12) Track 19 - In '35 won the pennant again, best team he ever played on, Chuck Klein, made a nice contribution, but then he got hurt, a hamstring pull; playing in Baker Bowl; also had Freddie Lindstrom on that team, good player at the end of his career; Kiki Cuyler, great player, great hitter (tape runs out—entire segment on Kiki Cuyler comment is on CTA 779 Side 2) (00:30:12 to 00:32:20) Cassette 2 Side Two Track 1 - (Tape picks up in the middle of comment from Track 10 on CTA-779 Side 2) On playing for Leo Durocher, as a player-manager; Durocher played Pee Wee (Reese) all the time, he came along and had a good World Series in '41, outstanding shortstop; Durocher not his best friend but admired how he ran the ball club, enthusiasm for the game (00:00 to 00:00:46) Track 2 - On Herman Franks, second string catcher (00:00:46 to 00:01:00) Track 3 - On always running into the Yankees in the World Series, he was in nine World Series and eight of them were against the Yankees, played in four and coached in five (00:01:00 to 00:01:30) Track 4 - On Pee Wee Reese, he wasn't big but he was strong; he was the best shortstop, but Billy Jurges also was a great shortstop, outstanding defensive player; Ozzie Smith most outstanding defensive shortstop Herman ever saw, makes incredible plays, was a gymnast and has great body control, can dive for the ball and get back on his feet; Arky Vaughan an ordinary defensive shortstop, outstanding hitter and runner, he could fly (00:01:30 to 00:03:28) Track 5 - On pitcher Bobo Newsom, a bit on his way out, a strange person, but a good pitcher; another good pitcher on the team, Whitlow Wyatt; always said Warneke was the best pitcher he ever played behind; but Wyatt was best in 1941, had an outstanding year; played against Schoolboy Rowe in '35 World Series, and played against him with the Phillies; was on the service team with him, Rowe a great hitter, great athlete (00:03:28 to 00:05:08) Track 6 - Was in military service in '44-'45, got as far as Honolulu; he was an MVP, they had Williams, and (Stan?) Musial; but Herman was MVP; he was a player-manager for the service team played with Bob Lemon, Freddie Hutchinson; won the pennant in Honolulu; had good players, (Gene?) Woodling, Johnny Mize, Skeeter Dickey, Ferris Fain (00:05:08 to 00:07:12) Track 7 - On Freddie Fitzsimmons, starting pitcher, playing in the World Series against the Yankees someone hit him on the knee with a line drive and cracked his kneecap; Herman got hurt too, hardly ever got hurt, '34 he had two sprained ankles, only played 130 games (00:07:12 to 00:08:04) Track 8 - On differences in baseball, enthusiasm level is lower, players just want to count their money; more emphasis on running rather than hitting; didn't want players that struck out a lot; Herman used to joke with Joe Sewell that if he could have made better contact he would have been a better hitter (only struck out four times) (00:08:04 to 00:10:12) Track 9 - On tough pitchers, didn't like right-handed sinkerball, three toughest guys were Hal Schumacher, Bucky Walters and Hugh Mulcahy with the Phillies, same, hard, fast low inside sinker; left-handed sinker balls were OK, he could hit them (00:10:12 to 00:11:04) Track 10 - Never thought about greatest day in baseball; greatest thrill was when the Cubs traded him, they had a guy named Jimmie Wilson as manager who had replaced (Gabby) Hartnett; Wilson didn't like him and traded him to Brooklyn; Brooklyn came back to play a series in Chicago, had a lot of knock-down games, this game was really wild and Wilson had Hi Bithorn pitching and (Chico) Hernandez catching, and he wanted them to knock the Brooklyn players down, but they didn't want to; Herman came up to hit and Wilson took out the pitcher and the catcher out, put in Paul Erickson, who could throw hard and Clyde McCullough to catch, both were his friends from years with the Cubs; first three pitches right behind his head; Durocher let him hit with three-nothing on the count and he hit a home run right over the fence; no helmets then, the only thing protecting you was a felt cap; they tried to hit people too much back in the day and people got hurt; don't blame the pitchers (00:11:04 to 00:14:52) Track 11 - The greatest defensive play he ever saw was by Ozzie Smith; Herman was a coach in '78-'79, playing in San Diego, outfielder (Jeff?) Burroughs hit a ball with a lot of spin on it; Ozzie Smith dove at the ball with glove hand and it bounced behind him; reached back bare-handed, caught the ball and threw Burroughs out, greatest fielding play ever (00:14:52 to 00:16:31) Track 12 - On going to Pittsburgh to manage, didn't really like it, his heart wasn't in it because he really just wanted to play, couldn't do either well; after Pittsburgh, he started to scout and coach; played 15 years in the big leagues and coached 16; went to Brooklyn for six years and was in four World Series; coaching is a good job; survived manager changes twice; Charlie Dressen was fired in in '53 and Herman stayed and coached under(Walter) Alston; with the Red Sox he coached for Billy Jurges and he got fired and stayed under Mike Higgins and then under (Johnny) Pesky (00:16:31 to 00:18:27) Track 13 - Retired in 1977, was inducted in the Hall of Fame in '75; started coaching again in '78 for Roger Craig in San Diego for two years; was sick of baseball; players hard to work with today; didn't have much of a team in San Diego his first year, and finished first in the league; next year didn't win too many games and it was really tough; can't tell the players anything (00:18:27 to 00:20:38) Track 14 - On regrets, he wouldn't have taken the job as a manager with Pittsburgh; he hit .298 with Boston that year, so he would have stayed a player for a couple more years (00:20:38 to 00:21:10) Track 15 - Had one son, two granddaughters and four great-granddaughters (00:21:10 to 00:21:48) Track 16 - On playing golf, having major surgery (tape runs out) (00:21:48 to 00:22:12.5) Cassette 3 Side One Track 1 - (Tape picks up in the middle of comment from track 12 on CTA 780 Side 2) On going to Pittsburgh to manage, didn't really like it, his heart wasn't in it because he really just wanted to play, couldn't do either well; after Pittsburgh, he started to scout and coach; played 15 years in the big leagues and coached 16; went to Brooklyn for six years and was in four World Series; coaching is a good job; survived manager changes twice; Charlie Dressen was fired in in '53 and Herman stayed and coached under(Walter) Alston; with the Red Sox he coached for Billy Jurges and he got fired and stayed under Mike Higgins and then under (Johnny) Pesky (00:00:00 to 00:01:39) Track 2 - Retired in 1977, was inducted in the Hall of Fame in '75; started coaching again in '78 for Roger Craig in San Diego for two years; was sick of baseball; players hard to work with today; didn't have much of a team in San Diego his first year, and finished first in the league; next year didn't win too many games and it was really tough; can't tell the players anything (00:01:39 to 00:03:54) Track 3 - On regrets, he wouldn't have taken the job as a manager with Pittsburgh; he hit .298 with Boston that year, so he would have stayed a player for a couple more years (00:03:54 to 00:04:27) Track 4 - Had one son, two granddaughters and four great-granddaughters (00:04:27 to 00:05:05) Track 5 - On playing golf, having major surgery, going to 10-12 card shows a year signing autographs; had some old-timers games scheduled but had to cancel; interviewer Roberts talks about Enos Slaughter; Herman says Slaughter does more than he does; interviewer talks about (Joe) DiMaggio getting more for a card show than his first two years; Eddie Mathews makes more money than when he played; old timers don't have much money; interviewer talks about Stanley Coveleski and Carl Hubbell; great pitcher like Dean was only making $3,500 a year; Herman was lucky, made some real estate investments and lived the way he wanted to; Herman was player-representative for the Boston Braves when the pension plan first started; Herman talks about some players who retired before the pension plan started; all players should be taken care of; Baseball Alumni Team doing a good job to help retired players who were in bad financial situations; the guys who were not covered by the pension; interviewer talks about Cool Papa Bell (tape runs out) (contains profanity) (00:05:05 to 00:13:07.6)" Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. 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