Buck Leonard interview
Date1987 April 05
DescriptionThree audio cassettes featuring an interview with Buck Leonard conducted by Rod Roberts on behalf of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum on April 5, 1987 in Rocky Mount, North Carolina.
Object numberHF-1994-0001-021
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Leonard, Buck, 1907-1997
Subject
Leonard, Buck, 1907-1997
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Library Call NumberCTA 752
Library Call NumberCTA 753
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Library Call NumberCTA 751
Dimensions3 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1 Side One -- Track 1 - Born in Rocky Mount, NC, on the other side of town, Sept. 8, 1907; 79 years old at the time of the interview; parents born in Rocky Mount; father was a fireman for the railroad, worked there until he was 39, and then he started working in the oil house, where he hurt his foot and he died; Leonard was the oldest boy, had two brothers and three sisters; went to Rocky Mount High School, black high school only had one year, so he went one year and got his diploma through a correspondence course; he played baseball and basketball in high school, played against other local towns; he finished school in 1921 and started shining shoes in the railroad station for three years, then he worked in the railroad shop in the office, and then in the air room, then worked around the yard in 1932, then was cut off from a job (00:00:00 to 00:04:51) Track 2 - First started playing baseball when he wasn't working in the shop; stopped playing in '32 when he started working at a funeral home, worked for a month; left to play baseball in Virginia for a month; played in Baltimore for a month, then went to New York and played for a 2-3 months; they had a problem with a landlord in Baltimore and he kicked them out and sold their cars, so they had no way to get around; his youngest brother was playing with him as a pitcher but needed to get home to go back to school; Leonard left New York and went to play with another team; and then was supposed to go to Puerto Rico, but they couldn't take him, so they gave him $5 to go home; a girlfriend of his gave him $20 to buy an overcoat and shoes to stay in NY for the winter, but he used the money to return home (00:4:51 to 00:08:57) Track 3 - In 1933 went back to New York to play with the Brooklyn Royal Giants; Smokey Joe Williams asked him if he wanted to play for a good team, and he joined the Homestead Grays; he stayed with them for 17 years; team broke up in 1950; he went with a team in Torreon, Mexico, then moved on to Durango, Mexico; called it quits in 1955, at age of 48 (00:8:57 to 00:10:40) Track 4 - Started playing when he was a kid in the sandlot; played while he worked for the railroad; he played semi-pro baseball, got paid $2 a game or $1.50, sometimes nothing; he was manager of the team (00:10:40 to 00:12:12) Track 5 - Tried to pitch, but his arm got sore, so he gave it up; moved to the outfield, but it was too far to walk, so he started playing first base so he could argue with the ump (00:12:12 to 00:12:50) Track 6 - Only played on black teams, against black teams; town was very segregated then, but now interracial; own had 3,000 people at its peak; people worked the rail yards; also tobacco country (00:12:50 to 00:14:17) Track 7 - Played baseball on school team; got first money for playing on semi-pro; left to play in Portsmouth, VA and then played with the Baltimore Stars, his brother was playing for Baltimore, so he went to play with his brother; stayed at manager Ben Taylor's house; Taylor moved the team from Baltimore to New York and they went with the team; then moved to the Brooklyn Royal Giants (00:14:17 to 00:16:41) Track 8 - In New York, 10 of them stayed in one room, in a hotel on 135th and Seventh Avenue; even though they were called the Brooklyn Royal Giants, they didn't play in Brooklyn; they traveled up and down the river and played all the teams around New York (00:16:41 to 00:17:48) Track 9 - Went to the Homestead Grays in 1934, owned by Cumberland Posey and Rufus Jackson; (looks at team photos) other players in 1937 included Josh Gibson, (George) Walker, (?) White? (Roy) Welmaker, (?) Hicks, (?) Splow (Jake Spearman?) (Ray?) Brown, (Welday?) Walker, (?) Gaston, (Roy) Partlow, (?) Benjamin, (? Spink ? Roberts?) (?) Dukas?, (Norman) Jackson; Gibson joining the team in ‘36 (00:17:48 to 00:21:34) Track 10 - Gibson caught; Leonard played first; points out pitchers and players on the photo (00:21:34 to 00:22:15) Track 11 - On better Homestead Grays team (putting photos back on the wall) 1943 was better team, started winning ballgames, won the pennant 9 years straight; Jud Wilson played third base; Jerry Benjamin played center field; (Joe) Spencer played third base; (Edsall?) Walker was pitching; Cool Papa Bell, (Roy) Partlow; Thad Christopher, Josh Gibson; pitchers (John) Wright, (Ray) Brown, (Charles?) Carter; Vic Harris in left field, Jerry Benjamin at second base; (Sam) Bankhead at shortstop; Vic Harris managing; they were on the warpath then (00:22:15 to 00:24:32) Track 12 - Played 200 ball games in the season, every day unless it rained, either a league game or an exhibition game (00:24:32 to 00:25:07) Track 13 - On playing in the winter leagues starting in '36, from '51 to '53 played on a Mexican team; three other American players on each team in the League; played for (Yaquis) de Obregon there; didn't speak Spanish very well, but got along; ate regular food, not Mexican food; other Americans were Barney Brown, pitcher; himself at first base and they had an outfielder in center field (00:25:07 to 00:28:04) Track 14 - Went to Cuba every winter from '36-'39; Cubans love baseball, best ballplayer he ever saw was a Cuban, Martin Dihigo; the ultimate utility man, he could do anything or be anywhere (tape ends) (00:28:04 to 00:29:39) Side Two -- Track 1 - Never saw (Cristobal) Torriente play; best second baseman was Sammy T. Hughes, played for Baltimore 4-5 years '34-'38, good hitter; best shortstop was Lloyd, but never saw him play, best one he saw play was Willie Wells (futzing with machine, phone rings); used to call Wells, Laffy, other people called him Devil; best third baseman was (Ray) Dandridge, he could play the ground balls and throw the man out at first; Judy Johnson was more of a steady player, but Dandridge was a better hitter (00:00:00 to 00:03:34) Track 2 - On changes in third base, keeping the ball in front of you (00:03:34 to 00:04:14) Track 3 - On best outfielders, Cool Papa Bell for center field; Vic Harris for left field, and a combination of right fielders, Dave Hoskins, there was also another Hoskins; best catcher Josh Gibson, run like the devil, could throw them out at second base, Torriente supposedly was a better hitter; Gibson was the longest ball hitter; best average hitter was (Oliver) Marcelle, but he didn't see he or Torriente bat; best hitter that he saw bat was Turkey Stearnes, could lead off with a home run, could hit the ball better than any ballplayer (00:04:14 to 00:07:39) Track 4 - On best pitchers, Satchel Paige, without a doubt, he was tough, fast, could throw the ball so hard you couldn't get ready for it; a picture of playing with Dizzy Dean and Cecil Travis; woman in the photo is Joanne Pace (00:07:39 to 00:09:00) Track 5 - Good first baseman, Donny Washington, also (?) Wes?; also Showboat (Dave) Thomas, also (Oscar) Charleston at first, but was better in the outfield, only moved to first when he got older; not getting involved in showmanship (00:09:00 to 00:10:20) Track 6 - On playing more than 200 games a season, plus winter games, one summer played 210 games, sometimes three games a day; got tired in the summer; when he first started, got 60 cents a day for "eating money," ham, eggs, toast and coffee cost 25 cents; ate beef stew and spaghetti for a month; could eat two meals for 60 cents a day, not three meals; eat breakfast about 10 a.m., dinner about 4 p.m. and maybe a sandwich at night; slept two in a room (00:10:20 to 00:13:06) Track 7 - On barnstorming tours, Brooklyn Royal Giants Dan Bankhead had a team that went through the south; not a good experience; one time in Jamestown, NY, they got to a hotel and they said they couldn't stay, had to leave; one time in Boston, staying at a white hotel, even though they had reservations; also had problems in Olean NY, Buffalo, they could play ball but couldn't stay in the hotels or eat in the restaurants; one time in South Bend, IN, all the black places were closed, so they went uptown, and one of the Puerto Rican players, (Luis) Marquez, said they should go into a white restaurant, and they told him he'd get thrown out on his head, but they served him, so they got him to bring them some sandwiches; the manager came out and said he would fix some plates for them and they could sit in the last two booths; another time in the Portsmouth, VA, (?) Charlie Peete and Leonard they had to go to the rooming house in the colored section, they had to change clothes at the rooming house rather than at the ballpark, they were going to leave after the ballgame, a fellow named (?) Emerson, said they could change clothes at the ballpark, but the owner of the team said they could do it once, but not again; told them they had to eat in the kitchen; one time went to Newport News, and they wouldn't let them change clothes at the ballpark, they went down the street to a colored man's house to change (00:13:06 to 00:23:34) Track 8 - On his experiences growing up in Rocky Mount, just like any other town for blacks, had to live with it; no Klan activity there; he was made assistant manager/vice president of the white team in town; Cincinnati had a working arrangement with their team, brought up Lee May, Tony Perez and (Bobby?) Tolan? center fielder (00:23:34 to 00:25:50) Track 9 - On his greatest day, he hit four home runs in one game in four times at bat in Newark NJ, hit off Rufus Lewis, so many good days in 23 years in baseball (tape is stopped) (00:25:50 to 00:26:57) Cassette 2Side One -- Track 1 - On seeing a lot of great fielding plays, one that stands out was a triple play, twice he made a triple play (interviewer talks about Ken Griffey catch) on (?) making a play one night in Indianapolis, caught a fly ball off his head; Willie Mays caught one over his head once; on (Josh) Gibson hitting a ball out of Yankee Stadium, Leonard says he didn't really hit it out of the stadium, but went over the corner, he hit a longer ball over the center field fence up on a mountain once in Welch, WV; see the boys looking for the ball up on the mountain (00:00:00 to 00:05:45) Track 2 - Quit baseball when he was 48, just couldn't do it anymore, came home in 1955 and said he couldn't play ball anymore; went into real estate business, he started off by renting houses (00:05:45 to 00:07:23) Track 3 - Stayed involved in baseball, local club '52-'53; in '54 with Washington; '55-'58 with Detroit; '59 with Philadelphia; in '75 they moved the team from Rocky Mount to Hampton, VA (00:07:23 to 00:08:20) Track 4 - On family, sister in Washington DC; nephew and niece there; all his other siblings gone; no children, 30 years old when he got married; was married 28 years and his wife died in 1967 from a heart attack; went 20 years before he got married again, married again last July; second wife said he got married because he had a stroke; his sister stayed with him awhile, but they didn't get along (00:08:20 to 00:10:02) Track 5 - If blacks wanted more than one year of high school, they had to go somewhere else; the only thing they taught was to be a teacher in the black school; population had 8,000 blacks and 12-15,000 whites back then; currently 15,000 blacks and 20-25,000 whites; the outlying county is mostly white, some black; one black lady in town was mayor pro tem, and is on the school board (00:10:02 to 00:12:32) Track 6 - On Cool Papa Bell being fast; Leonard roomed with him for five years, he could turn off the light and get into bed before it got dark; fastest man ever played with; they went to Denver in 1936, and he ran faster out there than ever ran; they played seven games in the Denver tournament, won all seven games and he was fastest man out there; excellent base stealer; never saw him get thrown out of a game (interviewer Roberts talks about Bell) he was playing ball when he was 16-17 years old, and still playing good ball in 1935-1943 (00:12:32 to 00:16:50) Track 7 - On Josh Gibson, he used to drink a lot, got drunk one night in '46, and he died that night, they said he had a stroke; they put him in a home in Washington for 15 days to dry him out, and he got better for awhile, but went back to drinking; it made him sick; he was happy, he never got mad; he was too old to move up to Major League baseball, one evening, Bob Griffith asked some of them if they thought they could make the Major Leagues, and they said they wanted to try, but they said it would break up their leagues; (looking at photos) before Jackie Robinson went to the Major Leagues, they went to South America, Roy Campanella, Sam Jethroe, Jackie Robinson, Quincy Trouppe, (Roy) Welmaker, (Gene) Benson, (Felton) Snow, (? Brigham?), (Sammy?) (Usal?) (00:16:50 to 00:22:28) Track 8 - On Connie Mack approaching players about the Majors; Leonard was in Mexico in 1955, and came back, and Bill Veeck called him, and Leonard said he was too old to play in the Majors; Veeck told him to just come and walk into spring training camp; he told him he was too old to play and didn't want to try (wife comes in and offers soda), on Robinson going to South America, he was in the hotel in NY before they were leaving to go to Caracas, and Branch Rickey came to the hotel looking for Robinson, and they talked for a while, and they all thought that Rickey was going to form a team in Brooklyn and wanted Robinson to play shortstop and manage the team in Brooklyn; Robinson wouldn't tell them what Rickey wanted; in '46, Robinson went to Montreal; Robinson was big, strong and fast, so he was the ideal man for Rickey to give a chance in the Majors (00:22:28 to 00:27:56) Track 9 - On there being better ballplayers around than Robinson, but he had played with white players and against white players, so he knew how to work with them; a lot of other players wouldn't have put up with what Robinson put up with in the Majors (interviewer talks about Larry Doby); Doby wouldn't put up with what Jackie did (00:27:56 to 00:29:30) Track 10 - Played against Willie Mays when he was with Birmingham, Mays was just 17 playing center field and going to school (wife comes in with sodas, whispering) (tape runs out) (00:29:30 to 00:30:33) Side Two -- Track 1. Intv: On (Hank) Aaron playing shortstop for the Indianapolis Clowns one year, and the next year going to the Minor Leagues; Leonard never played against Aaron, but was thrown out by Willie Mays (00:00:00 to 00:00:50) Track 2 - On Effa Manley running the Newark Eagles; husband Abe owned the team but she ran it; the owners of the Negro League teams typically were in some other business, not just baseball, in order to make money; Nashville Elite Giants moved to Baltimore, team was owned by doctors; nearly all of the owners were black men and had other businesses; (J.L) Wilkinson was the only white man in the Negro Leagues; he sold the Kansas City Monarchs to Tom Baird (00:00:50 to 00:04:18) Track 3 - On Satchel Paige touring in the North and Canada; Leonard touring in the South; Paige making a lot of money compared to the other players; one time they were in California playing against a white all-star team; Paige was pitching for the black team and Buck Newsom was pitching for the white team, and the fog rolled in, so they could only pay two innings, they each got $500 to pitch three innings, so Newsom wanted the teams to come back the next night; the first Sunday they played, the players got $196 apiece; second Sunday they made $206 apiece, the third Sunday they got $214 apiece (phone rings) photo of him shaking hands with Happy Chandler, who said he caused Jackie Robinson to be accepted into the Major League (looking at photos) (00:04:18 to 00:09:27) Track 4 - On having no regrets about his baseball career, would do it all over again; only regret having a stroke; he still follows baseball, but there seem to be a lot more players because the league expanding to so many teams; always followed the Major Leagues, knew every team and every lineup (00:09:27 to 00:11:37) Track 5 - On the Negro Leagues having players capable of playing in the Major Leagues, but a lot of players would not have been capable of playing at that level, they had to take players as they found them and some of them weren't that good, no farm teams for the Negro Leagues in 1949, the Major Leagues took nine players from them; in 1948 the Major Leagues took Luke Easter, (?) and (?); in 1950, the Negro Leagues had to call it quits, couldn't get enough players; (Ray) Dandridge was considered was too old to play; Leonard was too old; Willie Wells, Cool Papa Bell, they were all too old to play; Easter was 35 and could hit the long ball, but was past his peak (00:11:37 to 00:16:30) Track 6 - Looking at Leonard's bats and mitts; on Leonard being too short to be on first base, but it never bothering him, looking at photos; on Luke Appling hitting a home run at age 75; Leonard playing in an old-timers game in Chicago, and the two Waner brothers were playing and they were worried that they would pass out from the heat; on different players dying, Burleigh Grimes having a heart attack; on Edd Roush being oldest ballplayer; Leonard talks about Roush being a good hitter (00:16:30 to 00:28:23) Track 7 - No telling what he would be worth if he were playing baseball today; a million dollars is nothing to players today; Enos Slaughter's top salary was $20,000, today he'd be worth $600,000; Sam Rice, Goose Goslin had $15,000 top salary (tape runs out) (00:28:23 to 00:30:33) Cassette 3 Side One -- Track 1 - On the Hall of Fame; Catfish Hunter, Billy Williams and Ray Dandridge; Ted Williams walked out on the meeting; (Phil) Rizzuto thought he was going to get in; Leonard thought Rizzuto was going to get in; he thought it was past time for Dandridge to get in (00:00:00 to 00:02:50)" Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. 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