Judy Johnson interview
Date1981 December 13
DescriptionFour audio cassettes featuring an interview with Judy Johnson conducted by Rod Roberts on the behalf of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museumin Marshalton, Delaware on December 13, 1981.
Object numberHF-1994-0001-002
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Johnson, Judy, 1900-1989
Subject
Johnson, Judy, 1900-1989
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Library Call NumberCTA 798
Library Call NumberCTA 799
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Library Call NumberCTA 800
Library Call NumberCTA 801
Dimensions4 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1 content includes: Side One -- Track 1 - Born in Snow Hill, Maryland, on the eastern shore of Maryland; left there when he was quite young; his father was a sailor and Snow Hill's chief industry was railroad ties, his father's first job; they moved to Wilmington, DE when he was 7-8 years old; his parents both from Snow Hill; he had a sister and a brother, sister died four years earlier, brother still living; Johnson was the middle child; his brother played ball but not outstanding, he was a great football player in high school; he was the first person in Delaware football to kick the football with his bare feet; Johnson tried to play football but didn't like it, he was a drop-kicker; played basketball for the Catholic team in Wilmington, he was 5'10-5'11 so he jumped center; he liked any kind of sports, even jacks, used to play jacks with his sister and their friends; but baseball is his heart, love to teach baseball, he speaks at local high schools, he gets emotional, he spoke at a firehouse event for Babe Ruth kids and had to sit down because he got emotional; went to an autograph signing at the mall and one man said he put his kids through college selling autographs; since Johnson was in the Hall of Fame he got a whole bunch of baseball cards to sign; got cards from as far away as Cuba (00:00:00 to 00:07:07) Track 2 - On not graduating from high school; his father couldn't afford to buy him clothes like he wanted, and his mother wasn't in the best of health so he tried to help the family, he went to work for $3 a week; picked up a couple dollars on the side during the week; worked as a delivery boy for a stationery store and did odd jobs on the side; never made a lot of money in baseball, would go away in the winter, to Cuba mostly, and sent money home to his wife; she taught school for 49 years, but didn't make a great salary; they struggled and bought their home, not the best but livable and clean; both in their ‘80s; wife retired; he delivered for the stationery store to all the rich people; he'd either walk or ride the trolley, but most of the time he walked to save the money from the trolley tickets, six for a quarter; he got a job at a leather factory, called a rocker shop, jumped up to $6 a week, worked all day, on Saturdays, started at 4:30 and got off at 11, so he could play ball; worked there until his teens; he was taller than the other ballplayers; playing against a team in Chester, PA and the Hilldale team, one of the first Negro professional clubs, saw him and asked him to play for them; he went to Atlantic City and played with the Bacharach Giants that day; had a good game and so Hilldale picked him up (00:07:07 to 00:14:06) Track 3 - On the Bacharach Giants, a good team but they lacked depth, they were a salariedteam, but he didn't get a salary until he went to Hilldale in Philadelphia; the Hilldale team played between Yeadon and Darby, PA, and all over Philadelphia; had a great team, some of the best ballplayers (00:14:06 to 00:15:41) Track 4 - On using a 40-oz. bat, because he wasn't a slugger, only weight 147-148 pounds, never weighed over 155 pounds, was taught by a man who was one of the best ballplayers, white or Negro, John Henry Lloyd; Connie Mack told him that Lloyd and Honus Wagner were the best, and Lloyd managed Hilldale one year, in 1923, and Johnson learned more about baseball in that one year than in all the years he played baseball, Lloyd gave him confidence in himself, he hit .392, first year they had a World Series; Lloyd was about 6' tall, and he was great; but Johnson doesn't consider a man great just because he can hit or run, you have to think; Lloyd always had an encouraging word to pass on to you, such a nice man; Lloyd told him to go to Cuba to play in the winters (00:15:41 to 00:20:07) Track 5 - On his full name, William Julius Johnson, being compared to ballplayer Judy Gans, so they started calling him Judy; his mother called him Julius; younger kids used to call him Judas; he had good friends, white and black, and his best friend (?) Sylvester was an Italian boy, both mothers used to slap them both; they lived on the west side of town, where the Italians were moving in; all the kids played together, or had fistfights; now too much crime in Wilmington (00:20:07 to 00:23:08) Track 6 - On prejudice in the South, Johnson managed the Homestead Grays one year, and they went to spring training in Hot Springs, AR, and would train there for 10 days and go to New Orleans for a weekend, and start playing ball all the way back up to Pittsburgh, and then the season was ready to start; liked that trip (00:23:08 to 00:24:08) Track 7 - On not having problems being a Negro player in Philadelphia; but playing in the coal towns, Shamokin and others, some of those towns had never seen a Negro before; one of the towns had a trolley that ran to the ball park, and he was sitting up front in the trolley, and some of the kids would run away; he had a little kid that he gave his glove to, so he could get in the ballpark, the kid grabbed his hand and asked why it was black on one side and white on the other, and he said that the way God made it was only put out of a game once in his life; managing the Homestead Grays and playing in Nashville, the umpire was a home town umpire, and he had a pitcher (Leroy?) Matlock, and he could throw the ball, but didn't have the control of Satchel Paige, who had the best control of any pitcher; (he starts the story about Nashville, but then switches to a story about Paige pitching in Yankee Stadium) if you had men in scoring position, Paige would get you to strike out; they were in a playoff game in Yankee Stadium; Paige was pitching against Slim Jones, a fast pitcher, but he didn't take care of himself, a young kid and died young; back to Paige pitching at Yankee Stadium, Johnson got the ball and walked over to Paige; first batter was Chaney White (tape runs out) (00:24:08 to 00:30:33) Side Two -- Track 1 - (More on story about Satchel Paige pitching at Yankee Stadium) Johnson told Paige the guys were making fun of him at the barber shop, and Johnson told Paige to bear down and he struck the side out, and walked by the players and told them to go talk about that at the barber shop; Paige only pitcher that could throw the ball hard and the ball didn't move; Dizzy Dean would tell you how fast Paige could pitch; when Paige went to the Cleveland club and they had Bob Feller pitching, and they see each other in Cooperstown; never held malice towards anyone; someone spiked him trying to kick the ball out of his hand, and he needed six stitches; Julio Roho jumped on him one time, but then would get out of the way; they used to take a file and sharpen the spikes; Roho was a Cuban catcher, he was a dirty ballplayer, he'd jump on his mother if she was in the way; Johnson's only friend from Cuba was (Martin) Dihigo, in a class by himself, the greatest utility man, a man he would consider great, never got the recognition, but could do anything, hit, pitch, accurate throws from the outfield right into home plate; his English was fair (00:00:00 to 00:06:41) Track 2 - On liking to play ball in Cuba because he could make money there; on playing on Sundays for the Bacharach Giants, and other days for Hilldale; would play if they would pay his trolley fare; he'd come home on Sunday nights, and his friends would be waiting for him to find out if he got a hit or not, he usually did get a hit; they had a manager in Atlantic City named (Bill?) Pettus, who played with an old catcher's glove filled with chicken feathers, and the feathers would fly when he'd catch the ball (00:06:41 to 00:10:20) Track 3 - On Dick Lundy, he was a sweet man, great ballplayer; John McGraw used to own part of a racetrack in Cuba, and they played on Sunday mornings; one Sunday, Lundy felt good, had good range, like modern player Marty Marion; Johnson played shortstop or second base; Lundy had a big day, made a couple double plays, Johnson and he were roommates in Cuba; McGraw called Lundy over to his box seat and shook hands with Lundy and said it was a damn shame he was a Negro, never get that out of your mind; but Johnson always tried to play his best whenever they played against the Major Leaguers, which is why Connie Mack gave him a job, he knew Johnson knew baseball, knew ballplayers and was a gentleman; Mack had two families and they could never agree; Johnson could have gotten (Minnie) Minoso and (Hank) Aaron, but they didn't have any money; Johnson tried to get a Negro player in the Major Leagues, because he was in charge of the Minor League training; but never got that chance; without big money, you can't do anything (00:10:20 to 00:15:29) Track 4 - On Ted Page, a good ballplayer, they played together on the Pittsburgh Crawfords, with Cool Papa Bell didn't have too much edge on Page's speed; Jimmie Crutchfield also was fast; those three knew how to run, no balls fell in the outfield with those three, they knew how to run bases; Johnson was fast, too, knew how to run bases and take advantage of the outfield and the pitcher; would watch the pitchers warming up and figure out when to run on them; on modern player (Dick) Ruthven, Johnson says he could crawl to third base on him, have to think about baseball (00:15:29 to 00:18:52) Track 5 - On the Pittsburgh Crawfords being the best club in baseball, played Dizzy Dean and Paul Dean16 games in Pennsylvania and Ohio after the World Series, and beat them 9 out of 16 games; he played third base for the Crawfords, he has a publicity poster from the Crawfords; other players included Josh (Gibson); (Oscar) Charleston played first base and outfield; (?) Wrigley (?) also in outfield; Charleston also managed, tried to trade Johnson one year, a bunch of players were playing pinochle, and Dihigo came out to say Charleston was trying to trade Johnson to the Cubans, they called Gus Greenlee who said they couldn't trade him; Greenlee wanted him to manage the club; fans in Pittsburgh loved him; for the first East-West Game, Gibson, Charleston, Paige and Bell were supposed to go, but the secretary had booked 10 games in the East, so Johnson took the club to the East with 11 men, and they didn't lose a game, used psychology to keep the team going, he had two spitball pitchers that could really cheat; they were playing in Meadowbrook, NY and the fans would bet on the games, and when the game was over, a guy came down to the clubhouse and gave him $100 for winning both games, he threw the money in the middle of the floor and they divided it up; Charleston would get side money in NY and never shared it; Paige got a lot of side money (00:18:52 to 00:26:23) Track 6 - More on the Crawfords team; second base was the weakest spot; shortstop wasn't really strong; can't remember the names; Crutchfield, Paige and Bell was the outfield; infield was Charleston, and himself, and (Obie?) Lackey, if you threw a ball at that door, he'd hit it, a good swinger; Crawfords molded around so many good players; he got Josh (Gibson) out of the stands during a night game; his catcher, Buck Ewing, a fancy, one-handed catcher and Joe Williams was pitching, called him Smokey Joe or Cyclone Joe; they got mixed up signals and Ewing split his hand open (tape runs out) (00:26:23 to 00:30:26) Cassette 2 content includes: Side One -- Track 1 - (Continuing story about Buck Ewing and Josh Gibson) Catcher Buck Ewing got his hand split open, and Vic Harris was the second catcher but was playing right field; and he didn't want to catch; the lights were up on a pole and made it hard to see; so Johnson asked Gibson to finish the game for them; he went to the clubhouse and put on Ewing's uniform; Gibson got hit in the chest and shin guards, but the next day they signed him, he was 18-19-20 years old; he used to catch batting practice; he used to come and ask questions after the game, ask for advice; Gibson could pop the bat and the ball would just fly; they left New Orleans and stopped in Alexander, LA, playing a game, and they closed the town for the game, the town teams had some good players and they used to show off for the fans in the bleachers; the black fans had to sit in the sun, the white fans had the shade; Johnson said Gibson hit the ball so hard, if it had been a knife it would have cut the shortstop in two, the shortstop quit, and the Crawfords beat them 20-something to 2 or 3; the coach was the manager and told the don't let them niggers run you out of the park (contains profanity) (00:00:00 to 00:06:18) Track 2 - On Gibson hitting a ball over the top of Yankee Stadium out into the street; it was a frozen ball from Nat Strong, who controlled semi-pro ball in New York State; and Eddie Gottlieb was the booking agent in Philadelphia and got a percentage of any games; it was longest ball that was ever hit in Yankee Stadium; a lot of people didn't believe it, but Johnson was there and saw it; Gibson fell apart when his wife cheated on him when he was away during the winter; if Johnson had been there, maybe he could have helped him; he really loved the boy; he couldn't catch foul balls that well, but that was the only thing he couldn't do, he had a great arm and could run like a deer; the poor boy died heartbroken; whatever happened affected his brain, because he used to be meek as a lamb and his personality changed; one time (Oscar) Charleston called him dumb and Gibson picked him up and threw him down the steps; Charleston would call people a mother-fucker, one word Johnson hates, never used it (contains profanity) (00:06:18 to 00:14:21) Track 3 - On Leroy Matlock, played on the Pittsburgh Crawfords; Johnson did more managing than Charleston there; Matlock was a low-ball pitcher, kind of wild; a real gentleman, Johnson, along with Jimmie Crutchfield and Ted Page, they used to all hang out together, go get ice cream after the game; there were some rough people and drinkers in the Negro Leagues, like every sport, and like the white clubs; now there are boozers and dope, the worst thing that ever happened to athletes; he never remembered anyone doing dope, had some rummies but no dope; when the Phillies dope scare came up, somebody knew something, and it may have been true (interviewer talks about diet pills) (00:14:21 to 00:18:51) Track 4 - On Dick Allen, crying when Allen went down the way he did, had a lot of talent and could really hit the ball; when the As sent him to Little Rock, Mr. Carpenter had asked Johnson to write to him every week or so; his name was in on signing him so he tried to help him; Allen's mother had a lot of respect for Johnson; Allen got in the wrong way; Johnson and John Ogden went to sign Allen (tape glitches,) Johnson did everything that he could to help him; when he was in Little Rock, Allen wanted to come home because the fans were calling him nigger and other names, Johnson told him to grow up; Johnson told Ogden what to expect, and Allen came up to Philadelphia and he was doing well, but he maggots started crawling around him and he got in with a bad crowd, could have done really well in baseball, a real shame; owner (R.R.M) Carpenter used to treat his ballplayers well; treated Johnson and his wife well (contains profanity) (00:18:51 to 00:23:25) Track 5 - On modern agents working both sides, like racketeers, dealing under the table, double-dealing with players and owner; on some modern players; Garry Templeton with talent to burn; Bobby Bonds, a hard nut to crack; the players don't listen to him; the players are throwing away a lot of money; money rules everything, even in church, Johnson is the oldest living member of his church; don't have a enough members to keep the church up (00:23:25 to 00:27:16) Track 6 - On Greasy (George?) Sweatt; never had matching shoes, he was a mess; he could hit, played first base; had a house in south Philadelphia and would cook on rainy days, he was tall and slender, but a good cook (00:27:16 to 00:29:02) Track 7 - On Ed Bolden, he was all business, worked in the post office and manager of the Hilldale club, all the players came from around Darby; the Darby Daisies were the same players; Johnson managed one year for the Daisies, but then returned to Philadelphia to manage the Homestead Grays; most all of the Negro League clubs were owned by white owners; Newark Eagles were owned by Negros, the Manleys; EFfa Manley was a beautiful woman; tried to get Johnson to manage the club one year, but he was with the Crawfords, but he and owner Gus Greenlee were very close; the whole club liked Johnson as manager; one year they went down to Nashville to play the Negro team, playing on a Sunday in the white ball park, Johnson had a problem with the home town umpire; Matlock was pitching and Johnson knew he could throw strikes, Johnson never stopped a ball game to argue with the umpire, but in between the innings, he told the umpire he'd take the team off the field, and the umpire said he couldn't do that, but Johnson pulled the players off the field; Johnson had to stay in the clubhouse until after dark because they were going to lynch him, the groundskeeper kept him there until dark and called him a cab; Johnson called Greenlee and Greenlee said he did the right thing; closest scrape he ever had (00:29:02 to 00:35:56) Track 8 - On Newt Allen, good ballplayer, could have played in the big leagues, a smooth fielder, good hit and run man; reminded him of Charlie Gehringer, same style and form; Gehringer a good hitter, a timely hitter, good hit and run (00:35:56 to 00:37:01) Track 9 - On watching Major League Baseball in Philly; Jimmy Dykes was his idol and gave him his first good pair of baseball shoes; Dykes used to watch them play; they became good friends; Connie Mack always let the black players in for free; the only park they couldn't get into was St. Louis, wouldn't even let them sit in the stands, so he refused to go to their games (00:37:01 to 00:38:56) Track 10 - On Jake Stephens, a good ballplayer, used to back Johnson up on the third baseline, good ground ball fielder (00:38:56 to 00:39:40) Track 11 - On Louis Santop, a big guy, was playing when Johnson joined the Hilldale Club; they would go to New York, he and Paul Stephens were rookies, and after the game, Santop would make Johnson carry his suit roll and two big oversized bats; the rookies weren't allowed to say a word in club meetings; first time he played with Hilldale, the players could get gum or peanuts for free at the concession stand, and he filled his pockets with peanuts, and Santop would yell at him and turn his pockets out, and mash the peanuts in his pocket with his foot, Johnson started to cry; Santop also said you weren't allowed to cross the bats; later on they gave other new players a hard time; Santop couldn't catch worth a lick but he could hit the ball and he could throw the ball from home plate out of the park; in New York, no one would leave the park until Santop threw the ball out of the park; he hit home runs in every park; similar to Gibson; too bad he wasn't around him in his declining years; he used to catch batting practice to correct his faults; he played in Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico, everybody was after him after the season closed; not flashy or spectacular, but he loved baseball, saw him in his prime (tape runs out) (00:39:40 to 00:45:48) Side Two -- Track 1 - Hard to get baseball out of your blood; loves baseball, loves to teach baseball; when he worked for Philadelphia, would go to spring training and work with the Minor League players; the style of training changed, other people had different training styles; Johnson thinks he was trained properly; for example, bunting, a big league club doesn't want to fool around with bunting, but bunting is central baseball, the sacrifice is important and many Major League players can't do it; would keep those players out there bunting until they could do it properly; all pitchers like to hit, but if someone throws them a curveball, they run to the dugout practically swinging at it; bunting can be a necessity (00:00:00 to 00:03:35) Track 2 - On pitcher Sam Streeter, played on the Crawfords, he was a ball cutter, he used to take a bottle cap and cut the ball; doesn't take much to cut a ball; just rough it up by breaking the skin; a lot of players doctor the ball; he found out about one big league star doing it now; can name five guys in the big leagues who do it today (00:03:35 to 00:06:12) Track 3 - On spitball pitcher Doc Sykes, pitched for Baltimore, could never see his mouth move but would bring his glove up (wife Anita comes in;) he used slippery elm, others used tobacco juice, and the ball would dance; they weren't supposed to do it in the big leagues, but some cheated (00:06:12 to 00:08:47) Track 4 - On Biz Mackie, one of the best receivers in baseball, very smart and would watch you and move around; on moving around in the batter's box, need to have the bat at 45-degrees; Johnson never slugged, always ready to come toward the ball, never had to rush his swing; Heinie Groh had a different stance, but could hit the ball that way; Johnson was lucky to get two home runs a year; but he could run bases, hit first base so that he could push off on a direct line toward second base, same from second to third, this boy (Lonnie?) Smith that the Phillies had, hated to see them get rid of that kid, he's nervous, misses balls in the outfield because he overruns them; manager (Danny) Ozark never gave Smith a good chance; he had a good record in the Minor Leagues; someone like manager Frank Robinson could have made a good ballplayer out of him; all the players respected Robinson in the winter baseball (00:08:47 to 00:16:38) Track 5 - On Mackie being the best catcher in black baseball; he was a guy you'd have to put your foot in his pants, but have to have a soft shoe; today's catchers go down on one knee, even the outfielders, but you can't throw that way (side comments about mockingbird, loves anything wild) (00:16:38 to 00:19:01) Track 6 - On Rube Foster, just being inducted into the Hall of Fame; he belonged in the Western League, had great respect for him; there would not have been a Negro League without Foster, he loved the game, and he was responsible for the Negro Leagues, he was a great pitcher, was in Cuba one year, stopped in Florida, where they were playing for the hotels; and he asked Johnson to play for him for $25 more a month; but Johnson had promised (Ed) Bolden that he would return to the Hillsdale club, and he was good on his word; Foster said not many men would do that; Johnson only signed one contract in all his years in baseball; a man is a good as his word; Foster knew baseball, out in Chicago, the park they played in, had a long bench and he would sit on the end of the base and tell his players where to bunt; first year they played the Negro World Series, playing in Chicago, Foster came to the clubhouse, representing Western team, Kansas City; and started giving him lip, and (Louis) Santop said leave that youngster alone! Foster really helped the Negro League get organized; the white guys used to play against the Cuban League, the whole Louisville club went to Cuba to play, they were there 9 days and didn't win a game, they put them on the boat and shipped them home again; real good baseball in Cuba (00:19:01 to 00:25:00) Track 7 - On being compared to Oliver Marcelle at third base, a good ballplayer, good fielder, his average was average, but he could field balls, very smooth; he was a drinker and a ladies man; dressed immaculately, he was a Creole, nice fellow (00:25:00 to 00:26:18) Track 8 - On (Willie) Devil Wells, a good ballplayer, used a big heavy bat and could hit that ball; played shallow like (Lou) Boudreau; sometimes guessed where the ball was going; never rated Wells as a top shortstop; a good hitter, a damn good hitter; he'd jump on you, try to kick the ball out of your hand; Wells jumped on Johnson and gave him three stitches; the modern players sliding head first, he would break their fingers; (Dick) Lundy jumped on him one time, they were roommates in Cuba, playing for Dolf Luque, and Lundy jumped and tore Johnson's glove right off; Lundy was a great shortstop, much better than Wells; on diving after balls (00:26:18 to 00:31:35) Track 9 - On catcher Bruce Petway, saw him play a few games; threw Ty Cobb out a few times; John Henry Lloyd threw Cobb out from center field; Cobb tried to steal on Petway, he made 2-3 steps and dove back; Cobb was a dirty player, he would hit you too; Johnson never played against him but heard that Cobb would jump on people; Johnson could catch one foot and swing it out if he had the ball, was sorry about what he did it to (Ernie?) Padgett, played for Cleveland, they were playing some all-stars out in Darby, first time Padgett had played against Negro ballplayers, tried to steal third on Mackie, and Johnson stood on his foot and broke it, Johnson was so sorry, he cried all night long (00:31:35 to 00:34:19) Track 10 - On Scrip Lee, never learned to pitch until he started to pitch underhand, wasn't fast enough pitching overhand; had a good underhand curve ball; Webster McDonald also an underhanded pitcher, he was a prince, never lost a game to a big league all-star team, used to go to Baltimore, and they wouldn't play without McDonald, because he filled the park; they made a lot of money, more than in the regular season; he was so nice, never said a curse word, a real gentleman; could throw that underhand ball and it could zip, he first started as an outfielder, and then tried to throw overhand, but really got it after he switched to underhand; would scrape his knuckles bloody; a boy named (John?) Stanley, used to throw the knuckleball, then he started cutting the ball; one pitcher (?) Dan Davis used to rough up the ball, they threw out so many balls that they kicked him out of the league; in Newark one night, he struck out 18 of them; a lot of guys would cheat, put tar on the ball or other things; used to carry a bottle cap in top of his glove; sometimes almost cut the ball in half; fans threw money at the players; in Cuba fans threw money and bet on the players (00:34:19 to 00:42:29) Track 11 - On enjoying living in Cuba for the winters, rented a room from a Chinese man who had married a Cuban woman; the man came in and asked if he would throw a ball game, and he had the wrong man; they had a hot and heavy argument, supposedly three other ballplayers on the club were in on the deal; he was going to give each one of them $100, (Oliver) Marcelle, (Dick) Lundy and Johnson, and they refused to go in on the deal; they used to go to a club where there was an orchestra, you could buy a girl a drink, a Coca-Cola for a quarter, went home one night and there was a bright light above the door (tape runs out) (00:42:29 to 00:45:52) Cassette 3 content includes: Side One -- Track 1 - More on his Chinese landlord being a Cuban politician, wanting him to throw a ball game, and Johnson wouldn't do it; on a woman in his building getting hit by a gunshot; Johnson went home, but he went back the following year; world is a dangerous place (00:00:00 to 00:02:59) Track 2 - On pitcher Bullet Joe Rogan, one of the best pitchers in the Negro League, he could hit, throw hard and had a good curveball, good control; not as good as Satchel Paige; other good pitchers were Joe Williams, Dick Redding; every club had one good pitcher, but Paige was a standout, he was colorful; they used to a pepper game before the regular game, with (Jimmie) Crutchfield, Paige, (Andy?) Cooper and Johnson, and they would go out throw the ball around; Paige was very funny; (Leroy?) Matlock would get the ball going, like the Globetrotters (00:02:59 to 00:05:38) Track 3 - On Bill Monroe, before Johnson's time, an infielder and they say he was great; someone, possibly John McGraw, tried to pass him off as Cuban (00:05:38 to 00:06:21) Track 4 - On Jud Wilson, had something wrong with his brain, but he could hit the ball, as a third baseman, he was like a tree, never tried to be smooth, just grabbed the ball and threw you out; a left-handed swinger, but a late swinger; he was a real fighter; Johnson's father nearly made him cry because he knocked a man out; one game, Wilson was playing first base, and Johnson's father was at the game, and Wilson knocked the umpire out cold; they were playing a double-header, and his father met Wilson as they were going out and said I didn't think you were that kind of man; another time Jake Stephens was playing shortstop, and Stephens could say anything to Wilson; and one time at the hotel, Wilson had Stephens hanging out the window of the fourth story, holding him by his underwear and coat, with one hand, and Stephens was hollering until Wilson pulled him back in the room; he was a powerful man; playing in Trenton once, and Tom Barlow, a basketball and baseball player, had an argument with Wilson and the umpire; the umpire favored Wilson and Barlow came running down to first, umpires tried to restrain Wilson and Barlow, and Barlow sucker-punched Wilson; broke the game up; Wilson would fight in church if you made him angry, but he was the nicest guy; would go to Cuba, Mike Gonzales was a manager for one of the Cuban team, and Wilson would complain about the bats, and Gonzales would buy him a half-dozen bats; Wilson died in a crazy house; Johnson was driving south one time and stopped in Washington to visit Scrip Lee, and Lee told him he was in the hospital, and they went together to visit Wilson, but he didn't know them at first; then Wilson wanted his friend (Bill) Yancey, but didn't really know many people (00:06:21 to 00:16:33) Track 5 - On Yancey, they were inseparable, like brothers, wore each other's clothes; in the winter he played basketball, he was a real star in basketball; they met at the Philadelphia YMCA; he was very loud (tape glitches;) they were good friends; Yancey was practically the sole support of his family; neither one of them had a nickel to rub against each other, but were the best of friends (00:16:33 to 00:19:20) Track 6 - On Jose Mendez, was pitching for the Cuban Stars, a small guy, but a good pitcher, had a great curve ball; beat some of the Major League players in Cuba, a real hero in Cuba, dressed very well, never learned English; Johnson learned very little Spanish, mostly from his Cuban landlady; one player, Red Ryan, could speak English and Spanish equally well; Red was a pitcher, was always ready to pitch, could only pitch about three innings, a good reliever; he could pass for a Cuban easily so Johnson tried to get him to go out the West to play (00:19:20 to 00:23:16) Track 7 - George Johnson was a good ballplayer, could run, and was a good hitter, he was part Indian, like Joe Williams, whose mother was half-Indian, very noble-looking and beautiful; George Johnson's parents were part Indian; he left Hilldale to play with the Lincoln Giants, and he never came back up in the standings, broke his heart; they went down to Florida one year to play, and George Johnson and the umpire got in an argument and he knocked the umpire out, a lynch mob came that night and broke the door down, thinking that the two Johnsons were related, but a colored man who lived across the lake in West Palm Beach, along with the mayor, they had a yacht and used to bring bootleg liquor over from the islands, and they had smuggled George Johnson out of the area, had driven him up to Jacksonville and put him on the train; there was a group of white people that came down from NY, put big yachts in Lake Worth; and a few black musicians came to play, one of the musicians was tarred and feathered; also one time, the same group killed a Negro ballplayer, and propped him up in an empty box car, he was a pitcher with the Brooklyn Royals in NY and nothing was ever done about it; they had a sporting house with girls, and on Thursday nights, no Negros were allowed in (tape runs out) (contains questionable content) (00:23:16 to 00:30:35) Side Two -- Track 1 - More on sporting house, on Thursday nights being for whites only (contains questionable content) (00:00:00 to 00:00:22) Track 2 - On Showboat Thomas, a left-hander, good fielder, but couldn't hit that well; a pleasure to watch him in the infield, he was a showman (00:00:22 to 00:01:33) Track 3 - On Dick Seay, best little second baseman; couldn't hit a ball past him; an average hitter (00:01:33 to 00:02:18) Track 4 - On playing two games against Babe Ruth in Philadelphia; made up a club to play against them; (Leslie?) Dolly Starks was pitching, he had the best curve ball and struck Ruth out twice in the first game; second game, they put in (Willis) Pud Flournoy to pitch, a big guy, but every time he bent his arm back, Ruth had the ball out of the stadium onto Broad Street; Ruth was at bat four times and hit six home runs; no comment on rumor that Ruth was black; Ruth was one of the nicest people Johnson ever met; he'd go down and see the fans, and he liked his liquor; the guys that can do the most, often get hooked on liquor; used to throw money to the kids; he respected everyone, regardless of color; veteran ballplayers used to make it hard for the rookies, except for the first baseman/manager of Hilldale, who took a liking to him (00:02:18 to 00:07:10.4) Track 5 - Black pitchers threw almost every day; Joe Williams wanted to pitch every day; Satchel Paige did the same thing, used to have to run him off the field because he wanted to play; the guys in the big leagues today, they don't touch a ball the day before they are going to pitch; if you have a pair of shoes and if you don't wear them more than once a week, they'll feel (stiff,) same with the arm (interviewer talks about Stan Coveleski;) Paige never had a sore arm, those guys back in the day could pitch every day; today, they need 4-5 days rest; would like to take some of the modern players and teach them a few things; the pitching coaches don't help; pitchers need to use that arm every day (00:07:10.4 to 00:11:46) Track 6 - On Lou Gehrig, playing against him one game; never will forget it, when you played against a big league player; they had a pitcher, Nip Winters, a tall, lanky left-hander, and he struck Gehrig out twice, and then the ball he hit, Winters had two strike on him, and Gehrig hit the ball right back at Winters, and scared him to death, off came his hat; Gehrig was a good hitter, one of the best, didn't matter if the pitcher was right-handed or left-handed; Gehrig was always pleasant, but you couldn't get close to him (00:11:46 to 00:14:17) Track 7 - On Grover Cleveland Alexander, Johnson played against him but he was past his prime by that time, he was a good pitcher but the booze got to him, he was to be pitied (00:14:17 to 00:15:34) Track 8 - Played against Honus Wagner in a benefit performance; just like Alexander, it made your heart ache to see someone once so great, could go so low; problems with booze, modern players having problems with dope, the government could stop it if they wanted, but so many are involved with it and making fast money; gangsters controlling the truck drivers, baseball being the same way; country is corrupted with the underworld (tape runs out) (contains profanity) (00:15:34 to 00:18:58) Cassette 4 content includes: Side One -- Track 1 - On playing against the Philadelphia Athletics intact, beat them five out of six games, the only pitcher who beat them was Jack Quinn, a spitballer or knuckleballer; Dick Miller was with them, Jimmie Foxx, and (Kenesaw) Landis said that was the last game that professional big league team would play against them, any future games would have to be against all-star teams; (Connie) Mack said if Johnson had been white, he could have named his price; Bing Miller said he made more money after he played, than when he was playing (00:00:00 to 00:02:03.5) Track 2 - On Rev Cannady, a good ballplayer, second baseman, he could really run, most Negro players could run, a legacy from the slave-owners; he was a timely hitter, and could amaze you with his speed, but he was lazy; he was afraid of the bus going too fast; on Chino Smith, one of the best hitters in Negro ball, among the top, but never got front-page billing; played with Johnson for two years in Cuba; Luque tried to hit Smith in the head; Smith was well-liked in Cuba, Mike Gonzales really liked him because he could hit the ball; Smith played for the Brooklyn Royal Giants and the Lincoln Giants; he could play any position; played for Dick Redding when he was managing the Royal Giants; Smith's hands looked like shovels, very big hands; he died young, not sure what killed him; Nat Strong didn't want the press to give the players too much publicity, because he didn't want them to ask for more money; Smith could hit, run, throw, everything (00:02:03.5 to 00:07:07) Track 3 - On Never Sweat, Johnson never heard of him; (George?) Tank Carr, a first baseman, played one season in Darby, he was a good player (00:07:07 to 00:08:15) Track 4 - On Cristobal Torriente, played against him; Torriente played for Rube Foster, Foster preferred players with speed, Torriente couldn't run, he was an outfielder, but he could hit; Foster had a first baseman named (?) Grant; those were the real drive-in home run hitters, the rest would drag and bunt (00:08:15 to 00:09:05) Track 5 - On more people bunting in the Negro Leagues, wanted to get a man in scoring position; modern players only want home runs, even little guys are hitting for the fence; but if you have somebody on base, you have a chance to score a run; Torriente was a good ballplayer, but was always swinging for the fence; on pitcher Luis Tiant, playing against him (00:09:05 to 00:11:56) Track 6 - On Dave Malarcher, an infielder, played under Rube Foster, and managed with the same style, a good man and a gentleman; never had a carousing team (00:11:56 to 00:12:46) Track 7 - On Bingo DeMoss, a good second baseman; Foster at that time would have meetings, just like going to school, always had to have something to present to the club and the manager; Foster was wonderful, he and John Henry Lloyd, you could learn more under them in one night than the average manager (00:12:46 to 00:13:42) Track 8 - On trying to bring on players from the local area, Belvedere, a number of them could have made it easily, but they'd never sign; one player, Eddie Stone, went to Cuba and Puerto Rico, but had a chip on his shoulder (00:13:42 to 00:15:08) Track 9 - There wasn't much money in baseball; had to have a winter job; without his wife teaching, they wouldn't have had much money; when he used to go to New York scouting, the guys would hang out at the Big Apple Saloon, that was their life, but he stopped going there (00:15:08 to 00:17:10) Track 10 - On working in the winter as a night watchman at a gentleman's store, Mullins, just to get a paycheck; worked there for several years; he also worked as a supervisor for Continental Can Co., first Negro as a supervisor, and there was a man there who really didn't like him and made it tough, did everything he could to run him off; the plant manager liked Johnson, he first went there as a janitor, and used to talk to the manager; worked like the devil to accumulate two or three nickels; on his wonderful wife teaching for 59 years, being married for 50-some years (wife comes in,) on his good friend Leroy Hill, a scout for Pittsburgh; on trying to treat everybody with respect, whether they gave it to him or not; on the Defiance Club, a white, Irish club, he was the first Negro to go in the club; he and his brother used to coach for the white Defiance football team, the first Negro to coach the white kids, and they won two championships; when they first moved to the area, he was going to join the firefighters, but some rednecks wouldn't let him in; some blacks are the same way; one young ballplayer he knows hated the Phillies because they didn't let blacks in sooner, and Johnson blew his stack one day, defending Bob Carpenter and his family for all the things they did for blacks (00:17:10 to 00:27:24) Track 11 - On Jap Washington, a big clumsy man, could hit the ball, a first baseman, not the type of player Johnson would want for his ball club; a ball hit Washington right in the mouth one game, knocked out his teeth, but it didn't knock him down (00:27:24 to 00:29:05) Track 12 - On catcher Pepper Bassett, more of a showboat, he was a Southern boy and liked to drink; Johnson never liked to drink (00:29:05 to 00:29:41) Track 13 - On Roy Campanella coming after his time; he was a good player; Johnson had a team in Wilminton, the Alco Flashes (?) sponsored by the Blumenthals (?) and the Philadelphia Athletics gave them the old uniforms for the kids; Campanella came down with a club from Philly; Johnson knows him well now, a shame about his accident, but he was drinking, glad they never printed that; Johnson bought enough whiskey to float the room, but never drank it and never got drunk (00:29:41 to 00:32:06) Track 14 - On Jackie Robinson, never playing with him; met him a few times; on having dozens of players who were better than Robinson, but Branch Rickey liked Robinson because he was cultured, college-educated; a Panamanian player named (Frankie?) Austin could play rings around Robinson; (Bill) Yancey went to Panama and brought back Austin, and introduced him to Rickey, but Rickey didn't think he was the right one; Austin was wearing a zoot suit; he wound up playing in Portland (00:32:06 to 00:34:36) Track 15 - Wrapping up, tape stops and starts again (00:34:36 to 00:35:05) Track 16 - More on (Jud) Wilson, being thrown out of a double-header in Baltimore, getting in a scuffle with the umpire, being taken away by the cops, getting in a fight with the cops, putting him in jail, and cops putting the hose on him; on playing in Cuba, and having nothing to do on rainy days, calling his wife (tape runs out) (00:35:05 to 00:38:10)Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. 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