Satchel Paige interview
Date1981 September 13
DescriptionTwo audio cassettes featuring an interview with Satchel Paige conducted by Rod Roberts on the behalf of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum on September 13, 1981 in Kansas City, Missouri.
Object numberHF-1994-0001-010
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Paige, Satchel, 1906-1982
Subject
Paige, Satchel, 1906-1982
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Library Call NumberCTA 773
Library Call NumberCTA 774
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Dimensions2 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1Side One -- Track 1 - Introduction, discussing being on oxygen, smoking for 20 years, got off smoking on his own, even before they said tobacco was bad for you; his arm never gave way on him, his legs were what gave way and that's what he stopped playing baseball (00:00:00 to 00:02:04) Track 2 - Real name is Leroy Paige; born in Mobile, AL; controversy about his age, most people believe he was born in 1906, a fellow from Los Angeles wrote a book and found out his real age, he has a Photostat copy of his birth certificate upstairs, most people say 1906, Hall of Fame has him at 1904; Uncle Sam is the one who knows, that's why he gets a pension; on starting Puerto League, and South American League, on the breakup of the Negro League because they took Jackie Robinson and all the best black players; on not having many black players in baseball because they broke up the Negro League; on the Springfield Redbirds with owner A. Ray Smith, not very many black players; very few black pitchers in the Major Leagues; (Buck) O'Neil scouting and identifying talented black pitchers; Cleveland found Paige up in Canada, where he had a good League; Bill Veeck called him up and asked him how he would like to be in the Majors, Paige thought he was too old, he was surprised no one tried to bunt him, everyone was trying to hit over the fence, only three home runs hit off of him during five years in the Majors; didn't understand why players felt they were too good to bunt, if you could get a score, you go for it, just like "Stan the Man" (Musial) and Casey Stengel said, they were old-school, and were good friends, talked a lot; just like bringing in a good pitcher, if you know you can win, even in the 8th inning, you bring in that pitcher for the win (00:02:04 to 00:09:49) Track 3 - Kansas City's manager, Stengel and Billy Martin play baseball today like they used to play in the old days, people didn't bunt on Paige (phone ringing) real baseball—squeeze play, bunting, etc. (00:09:49 to 00:11:39) Track 4 - Learned to play ball in grade school in Mobile, started in the outfield because he could throw from left or center field to home, his professor, Brager (?) asked him to finish the game as pitcher one day, he struck out 17 men, had great control, baseball players are born not made; they put him on the pitching staff and he pitched around Mobile for 5-6 years; struck out 17 in Gulfport, and he went to the Chattanooga Black Lookouts and he was a wizard in the Southern League, Birmingham bought him, St. Louis traded Mule Suttles for him, and they played Rube Foster's team in Chicago, and he won 1-0 or 5-4, he never got beat more than 1 or 2 points in his life; he went back home and they traded him to Cleveland; he kept going up and up and up; the world started to follow him; he could throw the ball so hard in the daytime, that you couldn't hardly see the ball; could throw anywhere he wanted, he used to throw bricks at bottles to practice control; keep moving up until he was playing with the top black players (00:11:39 to 00:15:50) Track 5 - On playing for a long time, baseball players are born, God gave him his arm and he took care of it; he pitched every day; kept in shape, played infield, and hit batting practice, hit straight up in the air and catch the ball himself; played pepper, or throw over a Coke bottle, or put two bats up and throw between them; threw every day or every other day for 50-some years; only had a sore arm once in Caracas, not from baseball, from swimming and sitting out in the cold, that lasted about a month; he warmed up by playing in the infield for practice; on the diamond every day, in uniform, doing (00:15:50 to 00:19:12) Track 6 - "Didn't like baseball, he loved it" and still does; it takes training; back in the days, the managers didn't have to watch them train, they wanted to train, Frank (?), Walter (?), they stayed in shape because if they weren't in shape, they wouldn't get to play (00:19:12 to 00:19:56) Track 7 - Played baseball all his life, never had a job; had three brothers and five sisters, he was the 7th child, one brother also played baseball, threw harder than Satchel, could throw 106-107, threw a ball through a propeller on the plane; he was 40-some years old when he went to Cleveland and could still throw 80-90 mph; still not saying how old he is (tape glitches) (00:19:56 to 00:22:20) Track 8 - On other players being interviewed, trying to get all the Hall of Famers, hard for older folks to talk; Paige glad he's not worse off than he is, with the oxygen (00:22:20 to 00:24:09) Track 9 - On never playing any other sports; keeping track of his pitching while he was barnstorming, pitch only 1-2 innings, so it didn't affect his regular pitching; tried to beat everyone, (?) Davis had one of the toughest clubs; went to a tournament in Wichita in 1942, had a mixed ball club in Bismarck N.D. and they won the championship, first time he'd ever seen a mixed club, they couldn't go South with the mixed club; they didn't want them even in Wichita, the police stopped them and made the blacks and whites separate; police thought they were from Notre Dame because it said N.D. on the license plate; the manager (Churchill) said they only had three cars and they couldn't separate the black and white players; they had 80-90 ball clubs in the tournament; that tournament still goes on (National Baseball Congress?) (00:24:09 to 00:28:00) Track 10 - No problems with the black and white ballplayers, they could only go as far South as Tulsa; it started in Louisville, when Dizzy Dean won the championship, they wouldn't let them play there; had some really tough ones and had some good ones; blacks didn't do anything to those people that they should hate them; those diehards need to come together for the future of the United States; he might not be here to see it, but it has to happen, same as in football; golf and tennis don't want blacks in there; they kept blacks out of baseball for so long that they had a big pool of players; eventually, there will be black golf and tennis players; look at basketball, sometimes there are only black players on the court (00:28:00 to 00:31:42) Track 11 - On the color barrier keeping Paige out of the Majors for a long time; a lot of white farmers could have played in the Majors, but they didn't want to leave home; he can't say what he would have done if he had been in the Majors longer (interviewer talks about Edd Roush) Paige talks about writers editing his remarks, and he recorded the interviews, and they cut out more than half of what he says (interviewer talks about the Hall of Fame policies on interviews, never publishing anything before Paige approves it) Paige says he tells the truth, but the truth hurts, for example, when he joined Cleveland from Canada, Cleveland was five games back and he came on board and had a good year, and they won, and then when they made the playoffs, they wouldn't even let him start a game; they started someone else; wouldn't start Paige because he was black; the ones making those decision were Lou Boudreau, (Bill) McKechnie and (Hank) Greenberg; just like they didn't want him to buy a house in his neighborhood, because it was a white neighborhood, he was the first black man to buy a home in that neighborhood (00:31:42 to 00:37:58) Track 12 - On racial trouble in the Majors, they called him nigger, trying to get his goat, and he laughed at them; they also didn't like him because of his age, they said Cleveland was scraping the bottom of the barrel, but then he started pitching and Cleveland started wining, then everybody wanted his autograph; they still want his autograph today, they send him stuff from towns he's never heard of; he went to Cooperstown with some of the biggest men in baseball, and all the kids came to him, he had the longest lines of anyone in the Majors, on having a falling out with Cooperstown, not letting him travel because of the oxygen tank, or not wanting to pay his fare (interviewer says he'll try to address the issue) Paige says they want the white players in Cooperstown, but not him because he's a black player; when he travels, he autographs 100-200 books, spends an hour, hour and a half on autographs (Profanity: nigger) (tape runs out) (00:37:58 to 00:44:54) Side Two -- Track 1 - On trophies, he has quite a few, even though he gave a lot of them away to the YMCA; he was playing with (J.L.) Wilkinson, and he gave him a set of antique Chinese furniture when they beat the Homestead Grays, they were the best team, but he beat them in Washington, when Josh (Gibson) was alive; Josh was the best hitter for hitting Paige; Gibson and Ted Williams being the best hitters (00:00:00 to 00:01:53) Track 2 - On always throwing fastballs, he had a piece of a curveball; they never knew where his fastball was going to be; hesitation pitch stops the clock, his move wasn't in the books, his body was still moving, they didn't know what to call it; and they told him not to throw it anymore , he didn't need it because no one could hit is fastball, he was a right-handed pitcher, but could strike out left-handers and right-handers; between the pitcher and the manager, pitcher needs control, and when the left-handed hitters came up, you shift where you pitch, on the corner (00:01:53 to 00:05:02) Track 3 - Best team he ever played for was the Pittsburgh Crawfords, it was like an all-star team, had Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Judy Johnson, Jimmie Crutchfield, Cool Papa Bell, a number one ball club (00:05:02 to 00:05:54) Track 4 - Gibson could throw, could hit and was fast, weight about 210, could throw down that third base line behind the runner; they practiced all the time (00:05:54 to 00:06:24) Track 4 - On playing against the Indianapolis Clowns; Goose Tatum and King Tut; they had a good ball club but also had a good comedy act; Bill Veeck in Cleveland used to do some promotional things, and the crowd liked to see Tatum and Tut in the water; Zulus in the dress would come running out on the field and the crowds liked it; baseball would be better if they still had those types of things today (00:06:24 to 00:08:18) Track 5 - Paige played ukulele, they had a good quartet and sang spirituals, mostly church songs, kids were more religious, didn't have a lot of jazz; played with Louis Armstrong, they used to get his nickname, Satchmo, confused with Paige; Armstrong running Mardi Gras; on Mardi Gras in Mobile, the Zulu King in New Orleans is the one who has Mardi Gras sewn up; Paige still goes to Mobile, for shrimp, crabs, red snapper, trout; his sister comes up and visits and sends him crabs; doesn't like frozen crab; ate that as a kid, they'd go out and catch crabs with a piece of meat on a string, have to catch him quick because they will scoot away; catch crabs with a net from the beach, where there is lots of seaweed (interviewer talks about local buffet) (00:08:18 to 00:15:05) Track 6 - On not knowing Jelly Roll Morton (00:15:05 to 00:15:32) Track 7 - On Buck O'Neil, used to play first base and then became a manager; he'd be a good manager for the Majors; on Billy Martin and various managers; but baseball isn't ready for black managers; on Frank Robinson as a manager, he is a good manager, but doesn't have any good players; how could they put Robinson out of baseball when he's hitting .300; baseball is going down because they don't want to have the black men there; whites don't want to take orders from a black man; Paige never wanted to manage, unless he went to manage in the big leagues and they paid him enough money; Paige was never defeated in baseball, never pulled out of a game, never argued with the umpire (00:15:32 to 00:20:18) Track 8 - On not liking his Major League experience in Cleveland, and had a bad experience in Cooperstown because someone told him to sit down; Cooperstown hard to get to, so the place in Kentucky is going to hurt Cooperstown (00:20:18 to 00:21:56) Track 9 - On Oscar Charleston, a top baseball player, had moved from outfield to first base when Paige came in, he could really hit that ball; a number one baseball player; used to play right behind second base, just like Cool Papa Bell and Jimmie Crutchfield, turn around and outrun the ball, like the catch Willie Mays made, had to be able to turn your back on the ball and run to catch it (00:21:56 to 00:22:50) Track 11 - On Bell and Cuban (Tetelo) Vargas being the fastest runners; Sam Jethroe wasn't slow either; Boston should never have turned Jethroe loose, faster than anybody in the Major League now, but not as fast as Bell and Vargas; Ralph Garr playing for Atlanta, pretty fast; Willie Wilson not as fast as those men; Bell was the fastest, would cut right behind the umpire; Paige could call his outfield in and still be pitching, never got hurt by it; he was in condition; ballplayers need to train hard to make it easier when they play (00:22:50 to 00:26:19) Track 12 - On Paige's guarantee to strike out the first nine hitters; people would get mad and call him a showboat; he never turned around on the mound to throw to first or second base, just flipped it; all his moves were his moves; managers weren't smart enough to teach his moves; Major Leagues try to change things around too much; they tried to change his pitching, (Bill) McKechnie told them to leave him alone and let him pitch the way he wanted; on signals, one finger fast, two fingers curve, and a change up or screwball; he had a screwball pitch, a hard pitch to throw (00:26:19 to 00:29:39) Track 13 - (Contains profanity) On Clint Courtney, he couldn't' hit well, his father didn't want him playing with blacks; Paige was pitching to him as catcher, and Courtney told him to pitch to a hitter that got a triple, and he said he didn't want to be worried about the son-of-a-bitch, and Courtney came in talking about the black son-of-a-bitch, and Paige told him to watch his mouth, and he never said it again, they became good friends (00:29:39 to 00:32:19) Track 14 - On barnstorming with Dizzy Dean, he could throw hard, Paul Dean could too; they played along the Pacific Coast; had to get some Major League players out there to play so they had some competition; he was a good friend; on the movie about Paige, he liked it; they called him "rookie," which he was for Cleveland, more on getting to Cooperstown with his oxygen tank (00:32:19 to 00:36:00) Track 15 - On avoiding fried foods, getting food broiled, not having or understanding a microwave; eating seafood helped him have a long career; doesn't eat French fries because they are loaded with grease (00:36:00 to 00:37:46) Track 16 - On Martin Dihigo, the greatest utility man on Earth, nobody came close to him; played with him for about eight years in Cuba, he could pitch as good as anybody, catch as good as anybody, first base, shortstop, outfield; could play any (00:37:46 to 00:39:46) Track 17 - On John Henry Lloyd, only saw him for a little bit, but he could hit the ball further than anybody; Cool Papa Bell saw him play (00:39:46 to 00:40:26) Track 18 - On Charlie Gehringer, one of the best eyes, like Ted at the bat, he could see, he could hit, tough to get out (00:40:26 to 00:41:12) Track 19 - Never played against Jimmy Foxx (00:41:12 to 00:41:21) Track 20 - On Hack Wilson, didn't know who he was until he struck him out 3-4 times, supposed to be a home run hitter; this boy (Frank?) Duncan was catching and had to tell Paige who he was; Paige didn't know who the Waner brothers were until he played against them, but he changed the way he pitched them because they could spank that ball (00:41:21 to 00:42:04) Track 21 - On Bill Holland, a top pitcher, he really knew how to pitch, learned some stuff from watching him pitch; also Nip Winters (00:42:04 to 00:42:53) Track 22 - On Sam Jones pitching style, damnedest delivery, like Ewell Blackwell (00:42:53 to 00:44:07) Track 23 - On Turkey Stearnes, outfielder, can hit as far as you can see with field glasses, and strutted around the outfield like a turkey, but he could move and he could hit (00:44:07 to 00:44:35) Track 24 - On Cannonball Redding, he could throw hard, like Dizzy Dean (tape runs out) (00:44:35 to 00:45:00) Cassette 2Side One -- Track 1 - On left-handed pitcher Slim Jones throwing harder than Paige, died early from exposure (00:00:00 to 00:01:00) Track 2 - On drinking among ballplayers; not a problem with black ballplayers, no drugs, nowhere close to today; they had to be to bed at a certain time and someone sat by the door to make sure they did; Josh Gibson started drinking after he went to Mexico; quite a few ballplayers went to Mexico, white and black players, and they put them out of baseball; Gibson started drinking and couldn't stop; Babe Ruth and Rogers Hornsby both used to drink; Paige never had a problem with Hornsby; he could hit the ball batting against Paige even when he was a manager; he just tried to meet the ball, hit to right field on the line, and he was 60-something then (00:01:00 to 00:05:56) Track 3 - On Smokey Joe Williams, he could throw pretty hard; he could have been in the Majors; on top black players being able to play on the Majors; some on the farm teams could have been in the Major Leagues (00:05:56 to 00:07:54) Track 4 - On Abraham and Effa Manley having a great ballclub, all of the Negro Leagues had good ball clubs because they had all of the black players to pick from, just like the Major League had all of the white players (00:07:54 to 00:08:30) Track 5 - On Jud Wilson, one of the best left-handed hitters, came from near Washington and played for Baltimore; could have played in the big leagues; the Pacific Coast League was as good as the American League (00:08:30 to 00:09:20) Track 6 - On Cristobal Torriente, when he rolled his gold bracelet back, you could look for a home run (00:09:20 to 00:10:04) Track 7 - On playing in Latin America, learning Spanish, playing with (?) Brown, one of the greatest outfielders ever; on going to the Dominican Republic to play for dictator Rafael Trujillo; stripped the league of baseball players because they paid a lot of money; different from playing in Mexico, that was playing politics, but they got big salaries; they were told they had an hour and half to be packed; they dumped all of them in Puerto Rico; plane came from Caracas and took them to Miami, on a seaplane (00:10:04 to 00:13:03) Track 8 - On Paige having his own plane, a Cessna, (J.L.?) Wilkinson's son flew it for him because he flew in the war; just a little putt-putt with a heat gauge and a cigarette lighter, couldn't fly that high with it; only had it one year; it was easy to fly but could only fly during the day, navigate by the highways (00:13:03 to 00:14:26) Track 9 - On loving traveling, having a camp stove and catching pheasant, rabbit, quail, someone would go out in the morning and catch something and cook it; still has a camp trailer; had a lot of fun traveling, they used to pass the hat around and get silver dollars; if he could wind the clock back, he would do the same thing again; all the money they get today, they won't see what he saw or have the fun that he did; wasn't rebuked or scorned by people when they traveled, unlike Bingo Long clowns; they had one good clown club, with Goose Tatum; today it's all about the money, $200,000 or $1 million; they ate and slept baseball; if a club beat them, they would spend all their time trying to figure out what happened or how to beat them the next time, they didn't like to lose; today, with all the money, they don't care; Paige got it the hard way, they didn't make a whole lot, sometimes only make $300 in a town, they would feed them and fill their cars, and they'd go on to the next town, happy as larks; today the players buy cars and houses, into extremes; he bought his house for $25,000, today he could get $80,000 or more for it; people he played ball with helped him furnish it, they gave him some expensive furniture; a whole Chinese teakwood set, with chairs, tables, screens (00:14:26 to 00:21:20) Track 10 - On having a good life, no regrets, nothing beats trying, if you try you get what you want (00:21:20 to 00:21:56) Track 11 - On singing as an alternative to a career in baseball; he had a pretty fair voice, and probably would have joined a quartet; he played drums, and played his ukulele; his brothers and sisters all sang; on old-time blues singers, playing washboards, saws, axes, jugs, combs, anything you could make music from, a lot of fun; it was all about who had the prettiest buggy, and how you kept your horse (00:21:56 to 00:24:09) Track 12 - He grew up on the edge of Mobile, they did not have a farm; there was a shipyard and they used to sell crabs or sandwiches from a wagon with a furnace; used to sell fertilizer to old ladies for their gardens, from their Billy goat (00:24:09 to 00:25:47) Track 13 - On getting the name Satchel; got it from playing baseball, because he had a doctor's satchel, used to carry baseballs and gloves, the rumor about him carrying bags or having big feet, not true, Paige wears a narrow Triple A shoe, a long shoe with a D heel; people made up a lot of stories (00:25:47 to 00:27:55) Track 14 - On getting in trouble with the law with his buddies, some of them still living; they sent him to reform school because he didn't stay away from those kids; they stole some 10-cent rings and they caught him, so they sent him to Mount Meigs for reform school; but it was the greatest thing that ever happened to him, because he learned so much up there; they weren't locked up, had so much entertainment and games at the school; what they need today to keep kids out of trouble, the world has gotten too fast today for kids, it's rough; never been around anyone who did drugs, never saw people smoking marijuana in this country; today kids are doing it even in school; he learned how to live in the world at Mount Meigs, learned how to treat people; they had a lot of trade education, automotive, building, helped a lot of kids; he was in the choir, singing and playing drums, and drilling, just like in the Army (turning off air conditioner, looking at photos) (00:27:55 to 00:34:38) Track 15 - On photo in front of Lou Gehrig's locker; Paige the only one they let use Gehrig's locker, not sure why they wouldn't let anyone else use it, because there were a lot of other famous players; just like today's George Brett, all the papers talking about him but not about any of the other players backing him up; on how they trade players today, versus how they traded players in the old days, only the owners used to discuss trades, not the players (00:34:38 to 00:37:05) Track 16 - On taking photos, talking so long (interviewer talks about his kids, and being fans of Paige, taking photos, phone rings) on fooling around as a boxer, his buddy Quincy Trouppe becoming a fighter, but getting knocked out, so he quit; they boxed in Bismarck together in a tournament (taking more photos, untangling cords, rest of tape is just background noise of kids playing outside) (00:37:05 to 00:44:40) Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. 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