Leo Durocher interview
Date1983 March 29
DescriptionTwo audio cassettes featuring an interview with Leo Durocher conducted by Rod Roberts on behalf of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum and Museum in Palm Springs, California on March 29, 1983.
Object numberHF-1994-0001-027
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Durocher, Leo, 1905-1991
Subject
Durocher, Leo, 1905-1991
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Library Call NumberCTA 760
Library Call NumberCTA 761
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Dimensions2 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1 Side One Track 1 - Born in West Springfield, MA on July 27, 1906, he lied about his age originally; family of French origins; mother was from near Montreal, father came from Cohoes, NY, a French colony; both were French-speaking and he spoke nothing but French until he went to public school; had three brothers, he was the youngest of four boys; father was an engineer on the Boston-Albany Railroad; a lot of French people from the area; went to school in West Springfield, graduated high school; hit a science teacher with a stick and got suspended, never went back to school; father got him a job on the railroad and he played baseball; went to the electric company, and back and forth between the two jobs for 5-cent raises; was making $57.50 a week in 1925; when he went to Hartford to try out; there was a tailor named Jack O'Hara (?) who was a scout for Hartford; Paddy O'Connor was the manager for Hartford; opening day they came and got him; put his uniform on in the car to play opening day in Bridgeport (00:00:00 to 00:05:41) Track 2 - On starting to play ball with his brothers, played in Twilight League, played until dark and his parents had to yell at him; mother put him out of the house because she didn't approve of his baseball playing; his father got them speaking again (00:05:14 to 00:06:40) Track 3 - On getting $150 a month at Hartford, went to $200; then Yankees bought him in 1925, sent him to Atlanta, then to St. Paul and then back to the Yankees (00:06:40 to 00:07:23) Track 4 - Got meal money of $4; today $45 or more; but got along on $4 a day; they supplied the uniform, had to buy your own shoes and your own glove (00:07:23 to 00:08:32) Track 5 - Not too much Minor League experience; took other people's more years to come up to the Majors because there were only 16 clubs; players like (Joe?) Medwick, (Pepper?) Martin, Dizzy Dean took four or five years; today, more clubs, so people are bumped up sooner; Yankees always had a good training system under George Weiss (00:08:32 to 00:10:00) Track 6 - On Joe Dugan, great player, hit .280-.285, tough out, played third base, good arm, good runner, good sense of humor (00:10:00 to 00:10:48) Track 7 - On Babe Ruth, "all-American out" tag, he never heard Ruth say that; heard Ruth say the League's upside down because Durocher was hitting .500 for a time, wound up at .250; doesn't know where "the Lip" nickname came from; Yankees told him to call (Ty) Cobb a penny-pincher, and he got very angry; "nice guys finish last" came from the newspaper quote; everybody was friendly with Ruth, "house that Ruth built" and he was responsible for players getting better salaries; Durocher has a large framed portrait of he and Ruth when he was 18; called people "the kid;" Ruth coached for Durocher; some kind of player and some kind of hitter; everybody called him Babe, not "mister;" people said "Mr. McGraw, Mr. Connie Mack, Mr. Branch Rickey;" Durocher called him Branch (00:10:48 to 00:16:34) Track 8 - On having (Miller) Huggins as manager, small man; always knew what was going on; managers enforced discipline; Huggins fined Ruth $5,000 one year; always wanted players to be ready to play; desire, determination, will to win are what's important (00:16:34 to 00:17:50) Track 9 - On Ruth hustling all the time, giving 115%; where Durocher learned it (00:17:50 to 00:18:30) Track 10 - Lou Gehrig, great first baseman, great hitter, played every day; not as personable as Ruth, kind of a loner, a college boy, but no one gave him much trouble about it; players used to razz the rookies in those days, pulled practical jokes "ask for key to pitcher's mound;" would do anything to stay with the club (00:18:30 to 00:20:42) Track 11 - On Joe Duggin's father; Waite Hoyt, great pitcher, just got married at 81; some kind of nice man, a pitcher you could depend on; others you could depend on (Herb) Pennock, (George) Pipgras, Hoyt, (Urban) Shocker (00:20:42 to 00:21:52) Track 12 - Nicknames Hoyt called "Schoolboy," same as Schoolboy Rowe for the Tigers; nicknames stay with you whether you like it or not (00:21:52 to 00:22:31) Track 13 - On Herb Pennock, some kind of pitcher, great control, good curve ball, change of pace, fastball, slender guy, a craftsman out there; take people who got three hits off him, Al Simmons, Jimmie Foxx, Jimmy Dykes, Charlie Gehringer and he'd hit them with a fastball when they weren't expecting it; McGraw didn't like mistakes, kept the players at the park for hours after the game (tape runs out) (00:22:31 to 00:25:05) Cassette 2 Side Two Track 1 - On playing football, baseball, basketball and track in high school; better at baseball (00:00:00 to 00:00:40) Track 2 - On Bob Meusel, fine player, some kind of outfielder, tremendous arm, big tall guy, great arm and very accurate with his throws, bring that ball home when a man tried to score, fine hitter (00:00:40 to 00:01:34) Track 3 - Babe Ruth played right field every time Durocher (00:01:34 to 00:02:07) Track 4 - On Benny Bengough, fine catcher, great receiver, quick as a cat behind the plate, knew the hitters frontwards and backwards; weakest hitter of the group but a key force in winning: (Johnny) Grabowski was second string catcher; (Bill) Dickey came later (00:02:07 to 00:03:13) Track 5 - Dickey one of the greatest catchers of all time; hard to pick a perfect ball club; everyone picks different; he picked one and Ron Fairly picked one, Fairly picked Dickey and Durocher picked (Gabby) Hartnett, and that leaves out Mickey Cochrane, all great catchers; Hartnett had the best arm, could throw from a sitting position; saw Josh Gibson in Pittsburgh before there were any black players in baseball, saw him catch and hit two balls over the center field fence; Roy Campanella was number two on the catching list (00:03:13 to 00:05:31) Track 6 - Didn't play against many black players; played an exhibition game in Detroit in 1925 with Satchel Paige pitching, Durocher didn't hit the ball; several black players in those days could have made the Major Leagues; he and Judge (Kenesaw) Landis discussed it once and Landis said there was no rule against blacks in the Major Leagues; entirely up to the owners; (Branch) Rickey first one to bring on a black player, Jackie Robinson, and others followed suit; a bit of rebellion among the Dodgers when Robinson first came on, they weren't going to play with him and had a petition; Durocher said he was going to play and told them what to do with their petition; told them that Robinson was only the first and many would follow; (Willie) Mays, (Larry) Doby, George Crowe, Luke Easter, all came up; the whole premise came down to one thing, making more money, they were hungry ballplayers, great athletes and wanted to be able to make good money (00:05:31 to 00:09:57) Track 7 - On playing against Ty Cobb his last year in Philadelphia, and Tris Speaker was playing; Cobb one of the best players of all time, along with Honus Wagner, hard to say who's the best (00:09:57 to 00:10:46) Track 8 - On differences in playing ability between old-time ballplayers and modern ones; in old days every club had at least three great pitchers; in New York, Roy Parmelee was a good fourth, then you had (Hal) Schumacher, (Freddie) Fitzsimmons and then Carl Hubbell; then you went to the Cardinals and you had Dizzy Dean and Paul Dean, (Bill Hallahan) and Jesse Haines; went to Brooklyn, you had Dazzy Vance and (Watty) Clark; today, you won't find three outstanding pitchers on most ball clubs today; players were plentiful because there were only 16 clubs and they didn't bring them up as fast; took (Joe) Medwick four or five years, (Pepper?) Martin four of five years; Dizzy Dean, Rip Collins, (Bill?) DeLancey all in Minor Leagues for whole option period; today players get hurt a lot, rotator cuff; Willie Mays greatest player ever seen, played 154 or 162 and never got hurt or sick (00:10:46 to 00:14:15) Track 9 - On differences in playing third base, a little more agility today, diving for the ball and coming up with great plays, (?) Robinson with Baltimore and (Doug?) DeCinces with the Angels, (Sage? Said?); didn't see people diving in the old days more coverage on the gloves today; Astroturf makes it rough on everybody; if it gets a little bit wet, scoots off like a bullet; he never played on Astroturf, probably won't make as many errors, better bounce and balls stay down; outfield it will bounce over your head (00:14:15 to 00:17:02) Track 10 - On Mays first coming up, going 0-24/0-25; playing in Philadelphia, and during batting practice Mays was hitting balls onto the roof, but he couldn't get a hit against (Curt?) Simmons and (Robin?) Roberts; another time playing the Braves, (Lew) Burdett was pitching; Mays went to the plate four times all with less than two outs and he couldn't get a break, got beat 1-0; Durocher kicked his shoe off in the locker room and Freddie Fitzsimmons came over and said he needed to talk to Mays because he was crying; Durocher put his arm around him and said he brought him up to play center field, told him to have a good dinner, good night's sleep and start over again; next day, first ball (Warren) Spahn pitched to him, Mays hit over the roof; from then on, he went on a tear, the Mays we knew; best ball player that Durocher has ever seen, done so many things, always right in the middle of the crucial spot to win a ball game; he put people in the ballpark, it was exciting, Mays basket catch people thought was show-boating, Roberto Clemente made the same basket catch; Mays World Series catch, "I don't compare ‘em, I catch ‘em" (00:17:02 to 00:22:27) Track 11 - On early Yankees, Stan Coveleski there before Durocher; interview Roberts talks about his interview; ballplayers acting differently, (Grover?) Alexander in the World Series, brought in to relieve against (Tony) Lazzeri, bases loaded, two outs, game on the line, Alexander was eating peanuts coming across the field and Lazzeri hit a bullet off him, foul, then Alexander struck him out; players like Dizzy Dean, nothing worries them; Dean was great because he was mean; players had cloth caps, not helmets; in Miami, during an exhibition game against the Giants, umpire was (? Cy Furman?) scored seven runs off Dean in the third inning, he got mad and hit seven in a row, including Bill Terry the manager and the umpire told Frank Frisch to take him out because he was going to kill someone; Dean's persona was natural, not a put-on; they'd travel by train through small towns and get out on the street, Dizzy Dean on one side, Pepper Martin on the other, yelling back and forth; one day in St. Louis, it was 100 degrees or more, Martin got three brooms and a blanket, built a little fire like an Indian teepee; don't see that done today (00:22:27 to 00:27:29) Track 12 - Salaries different today, got $4 a day to eat on; today get $45 or $50 a day, they think they need more, but people don't spend $800 a week on food for a family (00:27:29 to 00:28:59) Track 13 - On baseball players talking baseball, Angels' owner Mr. Gene Autry took everyone to dinner and they talked baseball; Durocher took Autry into his first ball park, wanted to meet Dizzy Dean and Pepper Martin (tape runs out) ( 00:28:59 to 00:30:35) Cassette 2 Side One Track 1 - Players talking baseball more in the olden days; not as much of that today; do a lot of things differently today, keep track of the pitches, and that's good; yesterday's exhibition game (Geoff?) Zahn, you know how many pitches he threw because they keep track, so you know when a pitcher is likely to get tired (00:00:00 to 00:02:42) Track 2 - On players not being taught the fundamentals in the Minor Leagues; manager should be in a pension plan and have some sort of security, so his primary job is to teach the fundamentals; now, have to teach in the Major Leagues; "players make the manager, period," can be Mr. (John) McGraw, Mr. Connie Mack, and without the fundamentals, can't win; Minor Leagues carry the club; met George Steinbrenner once and he was very charming; Durocher wished he could have played for McGraw one year, and for Steinbrenner one year. (00:02:42 to 00:06:42) Track 3 - On managing, needing different kinds of players, comparison between Walter Alston and Durocher; Alston had a great ball club, (Sandy) Koufax, (Don?) Drysdale, (Johnny?) Podres, Maury Wills, (Jim?) Gilliam; they executed and knew how to play; pitchers pitching no-hitters; Drysdale should be in the Hall of Fame, won more games than Koufax; need the talent to go anywhere; sometimes best ball club doesn't win, need confidence; heard Frankie Frisch say that the Gashouse Gang in '34, even though we won, we weren't the best club but had confidence and players had the desire to be champions; managers manage differently, no one manages the same, Bill Terry, for instance, if score is tied in 7th, man on first or second, will call for a bunt; comes down to talent (00:06:24 to 00:09:44) Track 4 - Most important thing a manager does is to keep 25 guys happy, a tough job, get rid of the "clubhouse lawyers or rebels;" good to have a buffoon; tried to get rid of buffoon Dusty Rhodes, but good thing he didn't, because he won the pennant for him; Rhodes always had a bat in his hand; Willie Mays, would get on the bus with his pocketbook and pass it around, players would put cigarette butts, a few pennies in it and pass it back (00:09:44 to 00:12:20) Track 5 - Interviewer Roberts complaining about Hall of Fame being all about the numbers; Mays got hurt by missing two years; Ted Williams hurt by missing four years; Jim Murray asked Durocher why many shortstops are not in the Hall of Fame; many belong there, Pee Wee Reese, (Marty?) Marion, (Phil) Rizzuto, Luis Aparicio, Enos Slaughter; Slaughter hurt his chances by commenting to the newspapers; sportswriters shouldn't have so much power; Durocher on the Hall of Fame, on Rod Carew, should put players in while they are still playing, (Stan?) Musial, (Joe) DiMaggio, (Hank?) Aaron, (Mickey?) Mantle, (Willie) Mays, (Roberto) Clemente could be put in the Hall of Fame when they were playing, let the fans see Hall of Famers play; newspaperman forgot about Mays, Mays, Aaron and DiMaggio should have been unanimous; Williams wouldn't talk to newspapermen; today Carlton (Steve?) Carlton doesn't speak to papers; broadcaster (Harmon) Killebrew belongs in Hall of Fame; hate to see the five-year wait and the 15-year wait; people will never know if they made it or not and they deserved it; Durocher always been a Catholic and never misses going to church on Saturdays; Hall of Fame is the pinnacle of your career, but there is a door upstairs that he prays they leave ajar; Durocher doesn't expect to be in the Hall of Fame, can't worry about it because he has no control over it (00:12:20 to 00:20:34) Track 6 - Durocher a good defensive player, got rid of the ball quickly, soft hands; now teaching others to field, young (Dick?) Scofield, Durocher played against his father; lifetime batting average .247/.249; must have done something right to play shortstop all those years (00:20:34 to 00:22:04) Track 7 - On being aggressive on the field, taught by Miller Huggins, do anything to win, kick the ball out of a man's glove, anything you can get away with to win, as long as it's legal; take the World Series against the Dodgers, Reggie Jackson got hit and it wasn't an accident; 50 years in the game, all that matters is win or lose (00:22:04 to 00:23:58) Track 8 - On fighting a lot, getting knocked out, had many of those; fewer fights today because of the knock-down pitch rule; arguments today, from sliding into a base (00:23:58 to 00:25:17) Track 9 - On pitchers throwing at hitters; pitchers never threw at each other, threw at the best hitters; one year, playing the Cardinals, Robinson got knocked down and he was mad; Durocher said it was a sign of respect; Musial came in and said he didn't throw at Robinson; Durocher said to tell Eddie Dyer to leave Robinson alone, because otherwise they'd give it back to him two-fold (00:25:17 to 00:27:00) Track 10 - On working with Robinson, Durocher telling him he was too heavy; always wanting him to play because of his talent; can't get mad or dislike players if they can play (00:27:00 to 00:28:24) Track 11 - On Willie Mays great temperament, could have done what Robinson did; told Bill Rigney not to holler at Mays; Mays didn't respond well to yelling or fines; a way of handling different players (tape runs out) (00:28:24 to 00:30:21) Cassette 2 Side Two Track 1 - (Tape beings in the middle of comments about some pitcher) On Giants owner (Horace) Stoneham thinking they could win the pennant, too many slow-footed players; spring the following year, Stoneham agreed to make changes, sold (Johnny) Mize, and strengthen the power corners, acquired (Alvin) Dark, (Eddie) Stanky, moved (Whitey) Lockman from the outfield to first base, brought up Monte Irvin, put (Willie) Mays in center field, (Ray) Mueller, a good hitter, brought up Henry Thompson to third base, had (Wes) Westrum catching, made pitching stronger, made a deal for (Johnny?) Antonelli as a pitcher; some remarks about (Tom?) Morgan watching a current player and being impressed (00:00:00 to 00:03:13) Track 2 - On remark by (Frankie) Frisch that the Gashouse Gang, not necessarily being the best club, but had confidence and determination; Dizzy Dean said "they belong to me," won 30; said he's only win 26-27 the next year; wouldn't give him a raise, next year won 22-23; next year he said 12 was his limit, got hit in the foot at the All-Star game and won 12 (00:03:13 to 00:04:56) Track 3 - On having a good ball club, Terry making remark "is Brooklyn still in the lead," and they won; (Bill) DeLancey as catcher, Ripper Collins at first, Frankie Frisch at second, Durocher at short, Pepper Martin at third, (Joe) Medwick in left field, (Ernie) Orsatti in center field, Jack Rothrock in right, two Deans (Paul and Dizzy), (Bill) Hallahan, (Bill) Walker pitching staff; Durocher the only one still alive, hates to look at the picture of all of them; roomed with Dizzy Dean (00:04:56 to 00:06:30) Track 4 - Contrast between the Paul and Dizzy Dean; first time Dizzy pitched in Brooklyn (Buzz?) Boyle hit and he beat Durocher to the play, and it was the first hit; Paul went out and pitched a no-hitter; Paul very quiet, good sinker pitch, like a spitball, threw sidearm, a real good pitcher (00:06:30 to 00:07:47) Track 5 - On Frisch, college boy out of Fordham; Frisch played for (John) McGraw, didn't want people to read the newspaper or eat in the locker room; Durocher would have liked to play for McGraw at least one year; Frisch told a lot of stories about the great Mr. McGraw; playing for Dapper Dan Howley, always dressed well, the team kept losing and he'd say "stay with ‘em, we'll get ‘em tomorrow," with McGraw, didn't leave the clubhouse until 8-9 at night after you lost (00:07:47 to 00:10:30) Track 6 - On Rogers Hornsby, best right-handed hitter in baseball, got traded from the Cardinals because he was part-owner and manager, Frisch and McGraw got into an argument and they traded Frisch for Hornsby; nobody like Hornsby (00:10:30 to 00:11:20) Track 7 - On Smoky Burgess, great hitter but couldn't catch the ball or field; like Dusty Rhodes, couldn't catch the ball, but Durocher loved him, great hitter (00:11:20 to 00:12:22) Track 8 - On designated hitter rule, two leagues should get together, DH takes away a lot of managing, can't pitch around anybody, if you have a (Tom?) Seaver, Dizzy Dean, or Carl Hubbell or (Sandy) Koufax out there, they'll put a DH to beat you; some pitchers were great hitters, (Red?) Ruffing, Red Lucas, but they wouldn't get to go to the plate now (00:12:22 to 00:14:07) Track 9 - On Wild Bill Hallahan; was a wild pitcher, nicknames get stuck, like "the Lip," or Dizzy and Daffy Dean, good reading, sells newspapers (00:14:07 to 00:15:17) Track 10 - Hardest thrower Koufax, (Moes?) Grove; Koufax over 100 mph; similar to Nolan Ryan today, doesn't win enough, Koufax quit when he was 19-5, but hurt his arm; Dazzy Vance was a hard thrower but not harder than Koufax or Ryan; Walter Johnson one of the fastest that ever pitched (00:15:17 to 00:17:05) Track 11 - On greatest day in baseball, 1954, anytime you get in first place and pull away from the Dodgers three times, then went on and won it , defeat the Dodgers in four straight with four pitchers (Bob) Feller, (Early) Winn, (Jaime) Garcia and (Bob) Lemon; in '51 I was shocked, don't expect Thompson to hit a home run; '54 was the best from spring training to the World Series, the whole team had the talent, desire and determination and did it (00:17:05 to 00:19:19) Track 12 - Worst day, had a lot of bad ones, but never wanted to quit; quit when he was with the Cubs, went to Mr. (Philip) Wrigley and said they needed a chance, Durocher had tickets to go around the world, but Spec Richardson called him and he went to the Astros for a year, and one year only; Durocher suggested the third base coach Preston Gomez for the job as manager (00:19:19 to 00:21:29) Track 13 - On Adolfo Phillips being sick all the time, didn't have the desire, give me a Mays, someone who wants to play, a scratcher and a diver; someone who wants to make more money, the guys that want to win; desire related to money; Durocher would not have played less hard; (Pete?) Rose would play for nothing; Rose would kill you to get a run, knocked (Ray?) Fosse down in the All Star Game; if Durocher could pick one ball player to start a club, would pick Babe Ruth first, because of his ability as a player, and ability to fill a ball park; wrapping up; would be an extreme pleasure to get into the Hall of Fame, would be the happiest moment of his life; more on the Hall of Fame selection process being unfair, not representing great fielders; on letter from a man in Atlanta (tape runs out) (00:21:29 to 00:27:50)" Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. Only a portion of NBHFM's collection is currently online and the information presented here is subject to updates and additions based on research and imaging activities. The images, titles, and descriptions are products of their time. 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