Carl Hubbell interview
Date1983 March 26
DescriptionThree audio cassettes featuring an interview with Carl Hubbell conducted by Rod Roberts on the behalf of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum on March 26, 1983 in Mesa, Arizona.
Object numberHF-1994-0001-031
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Hubbell, Carl, 1903-1988
Subject
Hubbell, Carl, 1903-1988
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Library Call NumberCTA 830
Library Call NumberCTA 831
Library Call NumberCTA 832
Dimensions3 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1 Side OneTrack 1 - Born in Carthage, Missouri, on the Oklahoma line; when he was a baby, parents moved to a farm outside of Stroud, OK, then moved to Meeker, OK, where he was raised and went to school; Oklahoma was Indian territory and became a state in 1907; parents were born in the U.S., first Hubbell settled in Connecticut in 1654; Hubbell is an English name; mother had a Dutch name (Van Up?); they had a cotton farm and picked without machines; walked three miles to high school; had five brothers and one sister, he was in the middle; Meeker was a small country town and didn't have organized sports; they formed a baseball team but only six kids showed up; first time he played on a real team was when he was a junior in high school; worked in the oil fields for a couple of years after high school; worked six days a week and got off on Sunday to play baseball for the oil company team; always a pitcher (00:00:00 to 00:06:55) Track 2 - First professional baseball was with Cushing, a Class D club in Oklahoma; he was working in the oil fields near Tulsa, and Tulsa was in the Western League, and he used to read the box scores in the newspaper; thought it was great that guys didn't have to work, they just played baseball and got paid for it; he decided he wanted to try it, so he went to Cushing and tried out for the team; got off the train, got a room and could see the ballpark from his room; he went and watched the game the first day; the next day he had his shoes and glove and went to the park, when the older man came out, he asked for a tryout, but it was too late in the season, told him to come back in the spring; Hubbell asked to pitch batting practice for him, so he got his foot in the door; pitched batting practice every day for a week and was getting low on money, he said if Hubbell stayed a few more days, he might sign him to a contract, and that's what happened; spent five years in the Minor Leagues (00:06:55 to 00:12:41) Track 3 - Records were destroyed from the Oklahoma State League, he doesn't remember how well he did in 1923; he thinks he mostly lost; the next year, the League disbanded in the middle of the summer, the owner of the Oklahoma City club contacted the Cushing manager and he recommended Hubbell; he went to Oklahoma City for a while, and he farmed him out to Ardmore; he got sick that summer; spent the last month of the season in Oklahoma City (00:12:41 to 00:14:36) Track 4 - Played against Lloyd Waner in high school, they lived about 12 miles apart, brothers Lloyd and Paul; heard he was bad off, broke his hip and gave up (00:14:36 to 00:15:37 5). Track 5 - Intv: On learning and perfecting the screwball in 1924; an old left-handed pitcher, Lefty Thomas, was pitching for Oklahoma City at the time, a good Class A league, had some older players who really knew how to play; Thomas impressed him with the way he worked and threw, he had sinking fastball; Hubbell there a month, started two games, won one and lost one, and all winter he thought about spring training and learning the sinker; monkey-see, monkey-do and he picked the right monkey; next spring he went to Texas to train, and started working on the sinker, got pretty good at it; figured out to come up and over to put a little spin on it, and became the screwball; never hurt his shoulder or arm, but he got calcium deposits in his elbow; had just as good a control of the screwball as a fastball; interviewer Roberts talks about Stan Coveleski (00:15:37 to 00:21:00) Track 6 - When he moved up to Detroit, Ty Cobb didn't want him to throw the screwball, but Hubbell said Cobb never said one word to him in three years; George McBride is the one who told him; he was warming up with catcher (Johnny?) Bassler; and McBride came up and told him to forget the screwball; he forgot that and they forgot Hubbell; they kept him for three years, farmed out to different teams and he didn't pitch one single inning, not even an exhibition, for Detroit; could get lost in the Minor Leagues (00:21:00 to 00:23:41) Track 7 - On Cobb, being in the clubhouse with him, but never really formally met him (00:23:41 to 00:24:12) Track 8 - On John McGraw, a legend in baseball, but never changed with the times, he started managing Baltimore before the turn of the century, came to the Giants in 1902 or '03; conned the news media with his "Little Napoleon" bit; he managed exactly the same up until 1932, same as before the turn of the century; Hubbell talked to some old-timers, and a regular player got $2,500, (Bill?) Matheson was a big star and he got about $5,000; but the other guys couldn't stay in a hotel, they would tear the place up, so they had to stay in rooming houses near the railroad track; didn't make much money but had a lot of fun, and that's who McGraw had to work with, so he was very strict and demanding; took credit for every win, and blamed the pitcher or a player for losing; he started the hit-and-run play, and the sacrifices; and he got credit from the media, they believed everything he said; it was unpleasant playing for him, he didn't want Hubbell to throw any fastballs, just curveballs; he wanted four starting left-handed pitchers, and four starting right-handed pitchers; he wouldn't start a left-handed pitcher against a right-handed hitter, but that was how Hubbell was most effective; he got to pitch against St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Brooklyn and Philadelphia, the only ones he'd start against; pitching is like eating, needs to be regular, so it was hard on pitchers (00:24:12 to 00:29:13) Track 9 - McGraw was hard on umpires, screamed all the time, he and Bill Klem went at it; interviewer Roberts tells about Waite Hoyt being told by McGraw what to holler at the umpire (00:29:13 to 00:30:00) Track 10 - On Bill Terry, he relieved McGraw in the middle of season 1932, and Terry was great; after McGraw, anybody would look pretty good; told him to pitch his own game (tape runs out) (00:30:00 to 00:30:34) Cassette 1 Side TwoTrack 1 - Continue on discussing Bill Terry taking over in '32, traded some players, Freddie Lindstrom, Shanty Hogan, Bill Walker to bring in younger players; in '33 he got it together and they had a comparatively young club, Fred Fitzsimmons was there before Hubbell, two younger pitchers (Hal) Schumacher and (Roy) Parmelee; he traded for (Gus?) Mancuso, an older catcher to handle younger pitchers; we were picked to finish 5th and they started clicking in the middle of the season; Hubbell started relieving; and they wound up winning the pennant and the World Series against Washington, not many people came out, played to as low as 26,000 people in Washington, never a sold-out crowd; Hubbell pitched 20 innings and had no earned runs in the Series (00:00:00 to 00:02:50) Track 2 - On relief pitching, the save was not even included in the box scores at the time; in his relief work, he won 20 and lost 7 and had 23 saves; he bothered him, but he could both start and relieve; most pitchers either started or relieved, they couldn't do both; (?) Dean and Hubbell went head-to-head a lot of times, and Dean wanted to pitch every day; interviewer talks about Satchel Paige (00:02:50 to 00:05:17) Track 3 - On Travis Jackson, had to wait 40 years to get in the Hall of Fame; great throwing arm, he was fast, could run and had some power, hit around 150 home runs, could drive in runs, and then had to wait that long to get in the Hall of Fame; on Hall of Fame selection process, some older ballplayers participate; interviewer Roberts talks about the selection process only being about numbers; Hubbell talks about Enos Slaughter, outfielder for the Cardinals, a Pete-Rose-type ballplayer; a real hard runner, he hit good, played a long time, and he's bitter about it now; won't go in; on Johnny Mize, on (Ralph?) Kiner, similar to Mize; Mize a better hitter than Kiner (00:05:17 to 00:09:36) Track 4 - On Fred Lindstrom, a good third baseman and a good hitter; baseball came second to him, Freddie came first; always told Hubbell to pitch outside to the strong hitters, wanted to keep his nice teeth; asked McGraw to move to center field, and he did; interviewer talks about Lindstrom's son writing a terrible story about him after he died (00:09:36 to 00:11:51) Track 5 - On Mel Ott, the boy wonder, and the man wonder, gave 100% all the time, came right out of high school; didn't do much his first year, but then got going in second and third years; he wasn't fast in the field, but had a good sense of where they ball was coming down before it was hit; he and Hubbell roomed together (00:11:51 to 00:13:25) Track 6 - On Lefty O'Doul, he was for Lefty, a real con artist, would con the umpires, couldn't throw at all, couldn't run too fast, a good hitter (00:13:25 to 00:14:08) Track 7 - On Edd Roush, a real competitor; interviewer and Hubbell talking about Stan Coveleski, looking frail, not eating, living in a bad neighborhood; more on Edd Roush, his great years with Cincinnati, was over-the-hill by the time McGraw acquired him for the Giants; Burleigh Grimes and John McGraw didn't get along at all, McGraw traded Grimes for Pittsburgh for Vic Aldridge, the next year, after McGraw traded him, Grimes won 25 games and Aldridge won 7 and lost 11, but the news media never said anything (00:14:08 to 00:17:41) Track 8 - On Burleigh Grimes, he should live forever because he's so onery; threw the spitball; (Frankie) Frisch used to hit him good and Grimes would be told to walk Frisch, and instead threw four spitballs in a row to try and hit him; Hubbell never tried the spitball; Clarence Mitchell was on the club and he threw the spitball, so Hubbell didn't; it was banned by the time Hubbell came up, the old spitballers were grandfathered in, he never tried to fool the umpire with it (00:17:41 to 00:19:38) Track 9 - On Freddie Fitzsimmons, nicest guy and an intense pitcher, highly competitive, media called him Fat Freddie and it burned him up, wasn't an ounce of fat on him, just had a round body (interview fiddles with microphone); on Babe Ruth not being fat either, had a powerful physique, only later on got fat (00:19:38 to 00:21:25) Track 10 - On Garland Buckeye, Hubbell's first roommate; a huge guy; recommended a good delicatessen, seven days later, still eating at the same place; he just got too heavy to be a good player; on managers letting players choose roommates on the road (00:21:25 to 00:23:47) Track 11 - On Tiny Chapman, died awfully young, left the Giants to play in the Coast League, a great pitcher in the Coast League, a pretty well-built fellow, died in an automobile accident between Los Angeles and San Diego (00:23:47 to 00:24:26) Track 12 - On Shanty Hogan, huge guy, weighed about 260 pounds, they were always on him about losing weight, he was a good catcher, a good hitter, McGraw had to have curveball pitchers, and they signed Waite Hoyt, but then got rid of him; on Mancuso being a better catcher, Schumacher and Parmelee came up their first year, and he handled those two very well; on Hubbell working with Mancuso and other catchers; they learned what pitches he wanted to throw (00:24:26 to 00:28:05) Track 13 - On Carl Mays, was there when Hubbell came up; a lot like Burleigh Grimes; they said he killed a man, but only one person knows if he meant to hit him or not (00:28:05 to 00:29:31) Track 14 - On Ethan Allen, came from college, Yale, only a fair player, but always had a theory about things (00:29:31 to 00:30:18) Track 15 - On giving rookies a hard time (tape runs out) (00:30:18 to 00:30:32) Cassette 2 Side OneTrack 1 - More on giving rookies a hard time under John McGraw; when Hubbell first went to spring training in San Antonio, TX; regular players run batting practice, wouldn't let the rookies bat until early or late (00:00:00 to 00:01:52) Track 2 - On ballplayers reputation for horsing around, drinking, but Hubbell said there weren't any heavy drinkers; (interviewer Roberts talks about Satchel Paige) (00:01:52 to 00:02:49) Track 3 - On Dolf Luque, a relief pitcher; he had quite a temper, a real short fuse; a great curveball; had throwing matches with other pitchers, Charlie Root, for instance; he spoke English (00:02:49 to 00:04:06) Track 4 - Didn't know Waite Hoyt, just saw him around, gone by the time Hubbell arrived; (interviewer talks about Hoyt getting married) (00:04:06 to 00:04:58) Track 5 - On Hal Schumacher, a great competitor, a good sinking fastball, his curve was a poor slider (00:04:58 to 00:05:43) Track 6 - Involved in Giants farm system for 33 years working with Jack Schwarz as farm director; he and Hubbell, in 1944, went to work on having an extensive farm system by the time the War ended, a lot of older players who went into the service were not going to be able to play, but would need jobs as minor league coaches, managers, etc; they were fortunate to have Alex Pompez, a Cuban manager of the Negro League Giants, and he did a world of good in helping find black and Latin players, helped them sign (Orlando) Cepeda, Lou (Castro?) or (Dolf Luque?); (Dunn?); Juan Marichal (00:05:43 to 00:09:21) Track 7 - On Blondy Ryan, a one-year player in '33, not a very agile shortstop, a mystery man, always playing in a different spot (00:09:21 to 00:10:36) Track 8 - On Kiddo Davis, center fielder, really need a good center fielder at the Polo Grounds, had one real good year (00:10:36 to 00:11:03) Track 9 - On the configuration of the Polo Grounds, affected hitters more than pitchers; Chuck Klein never hit 100 in the Polo Grounds, as compared to Shibe Park, where he could hit better; Baker Bowl the only place Klein had a good average; Baker Bowl a hard place to pitch; if you can hold them to 4-5 runs, you could win (interviewer talks about Baker Bowl being like a Little League field) (00:11:03 to 00:13:48) Track 10 - On Chuck Dressen; he didn't play much, Johnny Vergez was the regular third baseman; George Uhle was finished by '33 and didn't get many games (00:13:48 to 00:14:51) Track 11 - On winning Most Valuable Player in 1933, 1.66 ERA , got a big $7,500 raise, was making $10,000 at the time; people didn't know what other players made; on modern salaries; he'd take a million dollars if they'd give it to him (00:14:51 to 00:16:41) Track 12 - On '34 All-Star Game, quite an achievement, got a lot of media attention, threw the screwball right over the plate; comparing it to Bruce Sutter throwing a split-fingered fastball, Hubbell calls it the same as the forkball (00:16:41 to 00:18:21) Track 13 - On pitching against Babe Ruth a few times; Ruth hit a home run off of him; only faced Lou Gehrig in the World Series; rather pitch against Ruth than Gehrig, can strike out Ruth easier; only pitched against Jimmie Foxx one or two times; (interviewer talks about Hubbell being second to Lefty Grove as a pitcher) (00:18:21 to 00:20:15) Track 14 - On Mark Koenig, a good player, helped the ball club; a good everyday ballplayer (00:20:15 to 00:20:54) Track 15 - On Dick Bartell, called him "Rowdy Richard," always thought someone was trying to slide into him; Hubbell pitched to him, and he crowded the plate, so Hubbell pitched him inside; he was a good ballplayer, hustled all the time (00:20:54 to 00:22:30) Track 16 - On there not being a lot of fights during his tenure (00:22:30 to 00:22:50) Track 17 - On Harry Gumbert, a good pitcher, not outstanding, but a solid player (00:22:50 to 00:23:13) Track 18 - On winning 24 straight games in '36 and '37; it was controversial as a record; the longest winning streak in Major League history; Ford Frick was the commissioner and he said it was not a record because it was over a period of two years, so it wasn't considered a record until 33 years later when there was an official baseball record book in the mid-‘70s (00:23:13 to 00:26:46) Track 19 - On Firpo Marberry, a good reliever (interviewer talks about Waite Hoyt saying Marberry was the hardest pitcher) (00:26:46 to 00:27:37) Track 20 - On Slick Castleman, had backbone fusion surgery and it ruined him, had one good year; Hubbell says a good trainer could have taken care of his arm; on Tommy John having ligament surgery and becoming a better pitcher; Hubbell had 17 calcium deposits removed at one time, but his arm still gave him pain (00:27:37 to 00:29:52) Track 21 - On warming up, 10 minutes on a warm day (tape runs out) (00:29:52 to 00:30:16) Cassette 2 Side TwoTrack 1 - On not really knowing when you're warmed up and ready; usually can tell when you're good and loose; (interviewer talks about Stan Coveleski) (00:00:00 to 00:01:18) Track 2 - On Jumbo Brown, called him "Brownie," never did know how much he weighed, he was always a big guy; one time in Philadelphia, it was so hot and humid and got really sweaty; he could pitch well for two innings (00:01:18 to 00:02:50) Track 3 - On having great years from '33 to '37; not great from '38 up until the War; stayed on because of the War; stayed around as long as he could win enough games; if he'd stayed around two more years, until '46, he would have been eligible for the pension plan; he gets nothing from the pension plan; it started at $24,000 a year, now up to $60,000 a year; cut off players who were making too much (00:02:50 to 00:05:50) Track 4 - On Zeke Bonura and Hughie Critz, Bonura playing first and Critz playing second; anything hit to his right he'd yell at Critz to get it, and run for the bag; Bonura a good hitter (00:05:50 to 00:06:44) Track 5 - On Gabby Hartnett, one of the great catchers of all time, really could throw, in spite of short arms; Hubbell on first base one day, Hartnett had the ball, and Hubbell ran down to second base and got credit for a stolen base; a good hitter (00:06:44 to 00:8:14) Track 6 - On playing with Paul Dean, came to the Giants, brother Dizzy had different temperament; Dizzy wanted to play every day, for Paul it was another day's work; Dizzy was more of a hot dogger, he was a natural ham, never planned anything ; Dizzy abused his arm badly; in '34 when he and Paul went on an exhibition tour through the Midwest, and he pitched every night for two-three weeks; next year, Dizzy went to Branch Rickey looking for a raise, and Dizzy held out until the day before the season opened, didn't even go to spring training, the next day pitched opening game; Paul had a faster fastball, just a thrower; Dizzy could throw more pitches, a slow curveball (00:8:14 to 00:11:41) Track 7 - On Van Lingle Mungo, could throw really hard, and had a little meanness about him; he came after Hubbell; he struck out a lot of hitters, but didn't have a good win-loss record; Brooklyn didn't have a good ball club when Mungo was in prime; (interviewer talks about Nolan Ryan winding up as a losing pitcher, even with strikeouts) Hubbell says, and Ryan makes a million dollars; Hubbell talks about Reggie Jackson, being controversial and in the headlines, but doesn't necessarily belong in the Hall of Fame, didn't perform well in the playoffs (00:11:41 to 00:15:03) Track 8 - On greatest ballplayers, Willie Mays could do everything, didn't have a weakness of any kind, always anticipating, always ready, scored a lot of runs because he was always ready; he did everything; military service hurt his record; military service kept the Giants from winning four pennants in a row; Hubbell wonders about Mays and Ted Williams, losing a lot of time to the military, hurt their home run records; Williams was the best left-handed hitter and (Rogers) Hornsby was the best right-handed hitter Hubbell ever saw; Hornsby had his own ideas about things, he and John McGraw did not get along; Hornsby bounced around to different clubs; Hornsby was the worst manager in the world; none of the Hall of Famers were good managers, because they have natural instincts and ability, it comes too easy for them, and other players don't have it; Joe McCarthy never played in the big leagues, but was one of the best managers; Williams never took a swing at a bad ball (00:15:03 to 00:21:14) Track 9 - On the strike zone changing, because of the way the umpires stood, American League umpires looked down at the strike zone, National League umpires looked up at the strike zone (00:21:14 to 00:22:40) Track 10 - Bill Terry was a great first baseman, great hitter; he didn't really like to play baseball, was in it for the money, not for the game; kind of like Paul Dean; but it was how Terry made his living; never saw George Sisler play, but he was a great hitter; Dolph Camilli another good fielding first baseman, George Kelly another good one (00:22:40 to 00:25:33) Track 11 - On Pie Traynor, great third baseman, great hitter; today has better fielding third basemen, Baltimore's (Brooks?) Robinson; Yankees' (Graig?) Nettles; (Interviewer talks about George Kell); the modern gloves are different, so they catch the ball differently, at third base and in the outfield; the ball can get lost in the glove and may miss throwing someone out; outfielders play to television with sliding catches (00:25:33 to 00:27:53) Track 12 - On ballplayers cutting the pocket out of the glove; on ballplayers throwing gloves out on the field, never saw a ball hit one of those gloves; Hubbell played with two umpires on the field (00:27:53 to 00:29:03) Track 13 - On best shortstops, Travis Jackson was very good, (Phil) Rizzuto was a real good shortstop, Pee Wee Reese another good one (interviewer talks about Rizzuto and Reese not making the Hall of Fame; hating the Yankees and hating Rizzuto; tape runs out) (00:029:03 to 00:30:33) Cassette 3 Side OneTrack 1 - More on Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizzuto, Reese a really steady guy for the Dodgers winning those pennants (00:00:00 to 00:00:54) Track 2 - Never did much exhibition work or barnstorming; pitched enough during the year, he pitched in nearly one-third of all games during the season; had a farm with his folks in the off season; enjoyed quail hunting, good eating; had a stroke six years ago so he can't hunt anymore, hurt his leg and affected his balance; lived in Mesa, AZ for six years; was working in the farm system in California, 54th year with the Giants; plus three years with Detroit; Giants were good to him, doesn't take much to live, his job worth a lot more to him than what they pay him, still interested in baseball, can't just sit and do nothing; can't participate in golf or any sport because of the stroke; on shuffleboard and horseshoes, Dead Eye Williams, a national horseshoe pitcher (interviewer Roberts talks about horseshoes); Hubbell continues to scout high school and college teams in Arizona for the Giants; doesn't like to travel; this year 5t0th anniversary of the All-Star Game, so he will be going to the ceremony in July; just seven players living from the '33 team (00:00:54 to 00:08:44) Track 3 - On Arizona State team, last two years lost a lot; on college teams; Arizona able to play beginning first of February and play all year (00:08:44 to 00:10:47) Track 4 - On the farm system, slim chance of kids not being discovered, 28 big league clubs and they go everywhere, don't miss anybody; (interviewer talks about his friend's son, reducing teams by stopwatch and numbers); Branch Rickey wrote books about the farm system, and he had scouts and camps all over the country; Rickey said if a kid can throw and run, you sign him (00:10:47 to 00:13:30) Track 5 - On evaluating a ballplayer's natural ability, see them play in a game and try to see if they are in the right place at the right time and throwing to the right base; not like an automobile, raise the hood and look at the motor; on Bobby Bonds being similar to Willie Mays, but didn't work out; Hubbell saw Bonds' son also, his son was suspended for not showing up for a game (00:13:30 to 00:15:52) Track 6 - On motivation, problems with giving players too much money early on; every player making more money than the manager, sometimes four or five times more; John McGraw is probably rolling over in his grave; Mrs. McGraw was really nice, not sure how she lived with him (00:15:52 to 00:17:18) Track 7 - On playing for McGraw, Mel Ott and Bill Terry, Bill Terry was the best manager for Hubbell; Ott was in Dutch with the news media, tried to please everybody, including owner Horace (Stoneham) (00:17:18 to 00:18:59) Track 8 - On best opposing manager, Leo Durocher, best with a good ball club; but worse manager with a bad ball club; both the best and the worst (interviewer talks about Hall of Famers being gentleman and Durocher not being in the Hall of Fame, talks about Joe Dugan) Hubbell says he saw Durocher at a game, he's in good health; a born gambler, rolling the dice all the time; in Cleveland, won the Series in four straight games; did a good job handling Willie Mays; Mays was 0-24, and he asked Durocher to take him out of the lineup, and Durocher said he wanted him in center field, then Mays started hitting better after that; Stoneham traded Mays to the Mets, and Mrs. (Joan) Payson and gave him $50,000 a year to play and coach, he played too long; then he was paid $100,000 to represent a casino; had an incident with commissioner Bowie Kuhn that Mays could not be a coach and represent a casino; but what really bugged Mays, that other players were making five times more money than he ever made; he was the first one to make $100,000 in baseball, under Stoneham, and today's players make a million dollars; doesn't seem right (interviewer talks about Satchel Paige picking Pete Rose as the best ballplayer, and Paige making racist comments); never heard Mays say anything about race (00:18:59 to 00:28:12) Track 9 - On signing kids today, modern agents doing all the deals; it cost Hubbell to get a chance, a way of life then, it was a big favor to be given a chance to play; can't blame today's kids for trying to get something up front (tape runs out) (00:28:12 to 00:30:32) Cassette 3 Side TwoTrack 1 - (Picks up in the middle of a comment, not sure who is being discussed) Relief pitcher comments about Mexican League (00:00:00 to 00:00:51) Track 2 - Hit about .200 most of his career, tried switch hitting, didn't help a bit, hit four home runs in the big leagues (00:00:51 to 00:01:40) Track 3 - Doesn't like the designated hitter rule, thinks that baseball rules should have been left the same; owners shouldn't have messed with the rules; same with basketball, Hubbell stopped watching pro basketball; looks like there will be a basketball strike (tape ends) (00:01:40 to 00:03:48)" Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. 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