George Kelly interview
Date1983 April 04
DescriptionTwo audio cassettes featuring an interview with George Kelly conducted by Rod Roberts on the behalf of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum on April 4, 1983 in Millbrae, California.
Object numberHF-1994-0001-003
Interviewer
Roberts, Rod
Interviewee
Kelly, High Pockets, 1895-1984
Subject
Kelly, High Pockets, 1895-1984
Classificationsaudio/visual materials
Collection NumberBA RMA 001 Rod Roberts oral history collection
Library Call NumberCTA 826
Library Call NumberCTA 827
Dimensions2 audio cassettes
TrannscriptionCassette 1 content includes: Side One -- Track 1 - Born in San Francisco, Sept. 10, 1895; on the great San Francisco Earthquake of April 18, 1906, he was 11 years old, lived on Spruce & Jackson Street, quite a way from downtown, cinders as big as your hand came flying out of the fire and they had to put water on the roof, his father was on the police force, helping people get things out of the fire and he came home black from the soot; remembered the pictures on the walls swinging; 11 children in the family, 9 lived, 7 boys and 2 girls, he was 7th out of the 9; doesn't know a lot about his father's family history, he ran away from home in Pennsylvania to fight in the Civil War, he was so short he had to stand on a soap box to saddle his horse; mother's maiden name was Lange, born in this country, sister of Bill Lange, who should be in the Hall of Fame, he was the Ty Cobb of his day, mother was German (00:00:00 to 00:03:55) Track 2 - Originally started playing baseball in the lots, walked to school and stopped at the playgrounds to play ball, didn't have TV or radio to take up your time; his brother Newt used to be the pitcher and he used to be the catcher; he plays any position at all; most young players today only play one position; ground ball is the same no matter where you field it (00:03:55 to 00:05:54) Track 3 - Pitched in high school, for San Francisco Polytechnic, they used to play in Golden Gate Park; the park had high screens for backstops in the center of the park and they had games back to back, so about 14 ball games going on at one time; the scouts came out there and looked; his uncle Bill Lange talked to Mike Lynch, manager for Spokane in the Northwest League, and so Kelly didn't finish high school, left to play baseball for Spokane, but after spring training, Walter Holke came out to play first base so they made a deal for Kelly to go to Victoria and play first base, he played there for 1914 and half of 1915, then he was sold to the Giants in 1915, the same year the SS Eastland, an excursion steamer, capsized in the Chicago River (00:05:54 to 00:09:04) Track 4 - On playing for John McGraw as manager, too many people focus on what he did wrong, but Kelly feels very fortunate to have played for McGraw, he saw something in Kelly even though he only hit .167; one time a fan shook his hand and asked how his aunt Mrs. McGraw was—they thought McGraw kept him around because they were related; McGraw settled arguments, even if you are right, you're wrong with me; McGraw had a heart of gold, used to take care of the old-timers; one time the umpire-in-chief pulled out a watch and gave him a minute to get out of the park, and McGraw stomped on the watch and was thrown out, it was a cheap watch but the next day he gave the umpire a brand new gold watch; another time, during the '22 World Series batting practice, a young newspaper reporter came over and called McGraw, Muggsy, and he hated being called that, so McGraw asked him who told him to call him that, it was the other newspaper reporters, so he told him to call him Mr. McGraw, the newspaper reporter was from a small town in Iowa, and McGraw told him who the pitcher was the following day so that he could scoop all of the other reporters (00:09:04 to 00:14:11) Track 5 - McGraw really knew the game, on the double steal, he'd find out who was covering, if the second baseman was covering and didn't have a good arm, he'd send the runner, but if the shortstop was covering, he's hold him up at 3rd; they played differently, always chased the man back, not towards home plate; didn't stay too long after games, had to report every morning at 10 a.m. (00:14:11 to 00:15:35) Track 6 - On Fred Merkle, was the first baseman when Kelly joined the club, no one understood the play when he was accused of making a base running mistake, it was a force play and he was out because he didn't touch second base after the runner on third scored; the incident affected his whole career (00:15:35 to 00:16:43) Track 7 - On Larry Doyle, he was a left-handed hitter and right-hand thrower, as compared to Merkle, a right-handed hitter; Doyle had a bad habit of throwing the bat, so they tied twine around his wrist; a good hitter, didn't know Waite Hoyt (00:16:43 to 00:17:50) Track 8 - On Hans Lobert, he and McGraw were great friends, Lobert played 3rd base; McGraw got on Kelly plenty of times, used to call them you big stiff even called Christy Mathewson big stiff, told Kelly to pull a play, so he thought about how he could trap the ball, and made a double-play, but McGraw wasn't there to see it, because he went down to the races at Belmont; Lobert used to needle Kelly, tell him to talk back to McGraw, Kelly said he didn't need to talk back to him, told other players never to lie to McGraw; he had all of the hotel staff on his side, so he knew all of the comings and goings (00:17:50 to 00:21:22) Track 9 - didn't really know Fred Snodgrass, Chief Meyers was a good catcher, he was an Indian; Jim Thorpe was also an Indian, he was a great athlete but not as good a ballplayer as a track man or football player; McGraw had him on the club but he couldn't hit a curve; McGraw said don't throw a slider because the last one went over the left-field fence, same as a nickel curve; doesn't remember Sailor Stroud (00:21:22 to 00:22:55) Track 10 - On Rube Marquard, a left-hander, went 19 straight, only saw him on the field (00:22:55 to 00:23:15) Track 11 - On being treated like a rookie, couldn't get into regular batting practice, had to get there in the morning to get in any batting practice; he used to pitch batting practice; guys today feel there's only so many throws in an arm, that's not true, need to throw every day to keep his arm muscles limber and not strain your arm; he figured out he could put a little clay from the mound on the ball and make it sail (00:23:15 to 00:25:00) Track 12 - On Christy Mathewson, had a fade away screwball; Hubbell was a great one with that; he was just a kid so he never went out with Mathewson (00:25:00 to 00:25:34) Track 13 - In 1917 he pitched his one ball game in the Major Leagues, over in Philadelphia, because Joe Oeschger was going for his 15th game, he had a bonus coming if he won one more game, McGraw knew that the owner of that club wouldn't give him the bonus is he won; they started Pol Perritt and then brought in Kelly after a couple of innings, he threw nothing but fastballs and they hit a bunch of high fly balls and they won; Oeschger said Kelly tried to beat him out of his bonus; Baker Bowl was a heck of a park, they put the balls in the icebox because they were so dead (00:25:34 to 00:27:37) Track 14 - Moved to Pittsburgh in 1917, on a look-see deal if he makes good, they keep him, if not, they take him back; he got one hit in 17-18 times at bat, so they sent him back; then he went into the service in 1917, and got out in 1919, and was farmed out to Rochester (00:27:37 to 00:28:20) Track 15 - During WWI, he served guard duty at Kelly Field TX, named after the first aviator killed down there, he was in a squadron of Kelly Field Entertainers, the football team, baseball team and the band, he was on the baseball team (00:28:20 to 00:28:53) Track 16 - On Benny Kauff and Edd Roush, they were both left-handed hitters; Kauff was a short guy but a good outfielder and hitter; Roush was great too; Kelly was traded to Cincinnati for Roush in 1927; Kelly, Roush and Bill Terry were all in the Hall of Fame (tape runs out) (00:28:53 to 00:30:05) Side Two -- Track 1 - Comment from interviewer about Edd Roush (00:00:00 to 00:00:05) Track 2 - On Honus Wagner, played with him in Pittsburgh, a lot of good players in Pittsburgh, all two-handed players, no one-handed stuff; Wagner was tall, 6', heavyset, bowlegged, had good hands like a steam shovel, he'd scoop up that ball and give you a handful of dirt at the same time; can't compare how much ground the players covered then, versus today, because it's a different ball and a different infield, the infields are faster now; if they played the infields then like they did today, with the shortstop in left field and the second baseman in right field, you wouldn't see the hitters try to hit the way they do today, they'd be dragging and bunting the ball and pulling them in; Wagner covered as much ground at shortstop as anyone, the ball was deader and didn't go as fast through the infield; he was a great hitter; today, all you hear about is the strike zone, kids don't know what a high-ball hitter or low-ball hitter is, they don't know what their strengths are; kids don't swing at the balls, a lot of hitters only take one swing at the ball (00:00:05 to 00:03:09) Track 3 - On Burleigh Grimes, a good pitcher, and in those days, they used to knock you down; Grimes got the sign to walk Frankie Frisch, and he threw four spitballs over the top of his head and knocked him down; can't throw at them today or they get insulted (00:03:09 to 00:03:48) Track 4 - Game has changed a lot, but people enjoy it more, the fans today wouldn't like a 1-0 ball game, they only want to see guys hitting a home run, all they care about today; the fans like what they see today in the various sports; can't compare players in different periods to each other, can only compare players in the same period, just like automobiles (00:03:48 to 00:05:39) Track 5 - On Frankie Frisch, a college boy, came from Fordham University in 1919, he played good second or third base; played third in the 1922 World Series against the Yankees; famous play, Aaron Ward on 1st, (Home Run?) Baker went into pinch hit, Johnny Rawlings was playing second, Frisch was playing third, and the ball was hit between Rawlings and Kelly, Kelly couldn't get it so he ran back to first, Rawlings made a great stop and threw from down on his knees to Kelly, Ward thought the ball had gone through, and Kelly threw the ball to Frisch at 3rd and it was a throw right on the button, and Ward knocked Frisch right into the coaching box, the umpire ran over to see if Frisch had the ball, and he did, so Ward was out and the game over, and they won the World Series (00:05:39 to 00:07:25) Track 6 - On Hal Chase, only there one year or so, he wasn't there when Kelly was there, they took catcher Mike Gonzalez and put him at first and trade Chase to Cincinnati, so he never played with Chase; never really played much with Bill McKechnie (00:07:25 to 00:08:09) Track 7 - On Dave Bancroft, a good shortstop, came over from Philadelphia, called him Beauty, didn't play with (Ray) Bummer Grimes (00:08:09 to 00:08:42) Track 8 - On Casey Stengel, the center fielder, Kelly used to take the relays from the outfielders, he had a good strong arm and McGraw told the outfielders to throw it high to him, not low; the pitcher used to be the cutoff man, no set rules, he had to get back to first base to take the throw, McGraw told him to get back to first base because he had a good set of hands; Stengel joked around a little, had a bird come out of his hat, one time, argued with the umpire, but stayed in the batter's box, the umpire is out there doing a tough job, a good job, but today the players make it hard for the umpires because the fans like it; too much violence in the game today, extends all the way down to the sandlot ball (tape is stopped to take a break) (00:08:42 to 00:12:50) Track 9 - Looking at photos (00:12:50 to 00:13:50) Track 10 - (this track is off-mic, so overall voices are low, most of this is just looking at photos and clippings) All of the pitchers were tough on him, not sure when he hit three home runs in a row; one game was a tie called on account of darkness (00:13:50 to 00:19:01) Track 11 - Never went in for statistics, led the league in strikeouts, just trying to get a base hit, take a good swing (00:19:01 to 00:19:48) Track 12 - (Discussion on doing more of the interview) (00:19:48 to 00:20:16) Track 13 - On Irish Meusel, left-fielder, came over from Philadelphia, a good hitter, pretty good outfielder, didn't have too strong an arm but was a good ballplayer; his brother Bob Meusel had a stronger arm and was a little faster, both were good ballplayers (00:20:16 to 00:21:02) Track 14 - On Heinie Groh, noted for his small bottle bat and for the way he stood, facing the pitcher; another thing wrong today, when you have five pitchers, have to see what is their best delivery, don't make them all throw the same, don't force them all into overhand delivery; he used to kid Bill Terry about playing first base, because it's a natural place for a left-hander, all the plays are in front of a left-hander; right-handers have to keep shifting so you can make the throws; they used to laugh about it, the where good friends; no one else stood that way, they wouldn't let the kids stand that way today, and may not get the results, same like Carl Mays, pitching underhand, or another pitcher stepping towards 3rd and pitching sidearm, they were the toughest pitchers (00:21:02 to 00:23:07) Track 15 - (Interviewer talks about Edd Roush) Can move around in the batter's box during the pitches, same as the catchers, they move depending on what kind of pitch is being thrown, so if you watch the catcher you can move after the pitch is thrown, that is natural ability, can't teach that, need to let kids develop their own way based on natural ability (00:23:07 to 00:25:49) Track 16 - Pitchers have to have control, that's the main thing, today, 90% of the balls hit are fastballs, still can't hit a good curve; a pitcher like Rosy Ryan used to throw 90% curveballs (00:25:49 to 00:26:42) Track 17 - On Travis Jackson, Old Stonewall just put in the Hall of Fame, good shortstop and a very good bunter, he never tipped them off, could bunt towards third base and beat them out, he had the knack, can't teach that; need to teach the pitchers to bunt; Jackson had good, strong arms (00:26:42 to 00:27:27) Track 18 - Didn't know Ike Boone, he was in the National League, he'd be a .500 hitter today as a designated hitter, wasn't a good fielder; Hack Wilson was a good hitter, a fair fielder, he was short and stocky (00:27:27 to 00:28:14) Track 19 - On Fred Lindstrom, played 3rd base, played in the 1924 World Series, he had a great year (00:28:14 to 00:28:40) Track 20 - On Freddie Fitzsimmons, a knuckleballer, good worker, wouldn't call him fat compared to some guys today (00:28:40 to 00:29:08) Track 21 - On Mel Ott, came up as a catcher, only 16 years old (00:29:08 to 00:29:32) Track 22 - On Dolf Luque, he was a hard worker (00:29:32 to 00:29:54) Track 23 - On hitting against Carl Mays (tape runs out) (00:29:54 to 00:29:58.3) Cassette 2 content includes: Side One -- Track 1 - (Interviewer talks about Carl Mays and Waite Hoyt) (00:00:00 to 00:00:43) Track 2 - On Eppa Rixey, a big left-hander; Ethan Allen, a good fast outfielder (00:00:43 to 00:01:18) Track 3 - On Leo Durocher, Kelly doesn't remember anything about Durocher, guess he was a good shortstop but don't know much about him; nothing about Harry Heilmann, he was a great ballplayer, good outfielder, good hitter, he was in Cincinnati at the closing of his career so can't judge him (00:01:18 to 00:02:16) Track 4 - On Ivey Wingo, catcher, left-handed hitter (00:02:16 to 00:02:28) Track 5 - On Rogers Hornsby, he was mostly in St. Louis, he was an outstanding hitter (00:02:28 to 00:02:48) Track 6 - Kelly was in Chicago in 1930, and Charlie Root was pitching; on Ruth calling the home run off of Root, controversial, some say he did, others say he didn't, the fans liked it (00:02:48 to 00:03:29) Track 7 - On having a good relationship with the newspapers, never asked any favors of them, let them write what they want to write, (John) McGraw told him not to read the papers, today the players only want publicity (00:03:29 to 00:04:11) Track 8 - On Lefty O'Doul, a great hitter, came up as a pitcher but his arm wasn't very good, was a decent fielder (00:04:11 to 00:04:25) Track 9 - On Van Lingle Mungo, meal ticket for the Dodgers for a long time, a good pitcher (00:04:25 to 00:04:35) Track 10 - On Dazzy Vance, one of those pitchers, a good curve ball, like dropping the ball off the edge of a table, good fastball (00:04:35 to 00:04:48) Track 11 - Fastest pitcher he ever saw was Walter Johnson, even near the end of his career, he developed a curve ball (interviewer talks about Lefty Grove and Connie Mack) (00:04:48 to 00:05:38) Track 12 - On Kelly leaving Major Leagues and playing in the Minor Leagues for Jersey City and Oakland, when he went to Brooklyn, he didn't have any spring training at all, he played over his head when he went from Minneapolis to the Cubs, they waived him out of the league, it was alright because he was at the end of his career, but when you look at his average, he was hitting .330, and nobody wanted him, so he went up to Minneapolis for Mike Kelly; didn't get a release; first baseman for Brooklyn Del Bissonette got stepped on in volleyball, so he got a wire from Kelly that he was sold to Brooklyn, had no spring training and got off to a bad start, so he offered to swap with the young first baseman in Jersey City, then came out to Oakland, but he couldn't play, he was all through (00:05:38 to 00:07:44) Track 13 - After he left baseball, did a little scouting, worked at San Francisco International Airport as a starter for the taxi cabs (interviewer talks about Bob Lemon) (00:07:44 to 00:08:39) Track 14 - On retiring Bill Terry's number, going to the ceremony, others attending include Augie Galan, Dick Bartell, Johnny Vergez (00:08:39 to 00:09:14) Track 15 - Doesn't go to games too often, every now and then he takes in a game (00:09:14 to 00:09:30) Track 16 - Taking pictures (00:09:30 to 00:13:37) Track 17 - Had 3 children, one boy and two girls, five grandchildren, one lives nearby, others are in Yorktown, VA; they go visit when he goes out to Cooperstown (more picture taking) wife from San Francisco, became a baseball fan, on a painting of Kelly and Casey Stengel on silk that he got in Japan; they had professional rooters in Japan; on the Hall of Fame having a lot of stuff in the basement, bad publicity about selling stuff; on writing a letter to the Hall of Fame about putting his uncle Bill Lange, in; on putting players in the Hall of Fame when they are too young; should put in more older players (00:13:37 to 00:19:58) Track 18 - On baseball being a wonderful life, today it is a lot different; on being a family man in baseball, didn't bother him (tape stops) (00:19:58 to 00:20:54)Public Access NotePlease note that not all works are on view at all times - their availability is subject to change per the discretion of the Museum staff. 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